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There was talk about renaming the Krugman thread for this purpose, but that seems to be going nowhere. Besides which, I feel the Krugman thread should be left to discuss Krugman while this thread can be used for more general economic discussion.

Discuss:

  • The merits of competing theories.
  • The role of the government in managing the economy.
  • The causes of and solutions to our current economic woes.
  • Comparisons between the economic systems of different countries.
  • Theoretical and existing alternatives to our current market system.

edited 17th Dec '12 10:58:52 AM by Topazan

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#17351: Apr 27th 2017 at 5:23:23 AM

[up] Yet another reason I find that "grifter" economy is a more appropriate name for it.

As if I needed more reasons to hate Uber and Airbnb.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#17352: Apr 27th 2017 at 6:21:30 AM

They do seem to get a lot of competitive advantage out of dodging taxes and regulation. It leads one to wonder if they'd have any advantage at all if those were taken away.

More Equitablog stuff: Equitable Growth in Conversation: Brad DeLong and Marshall Steinbaum. This is a conversation about their upcoming book, After Piketty, talking about the revolution he created in economic thought.

In particular, they note that Piketty's famous equation for predicting changes in inequality (if r > g, when r = return on investment and g = economic growth, then inequality increases), when applied to our modern system, fails until you separate return on capital investment and return on wealth.

That is, as the labor share of income increases decreases, returns on capital investment should become smaller, since you have more machines "competing for workers", driving down their prices. Rather, the majority of the ever-increasing returns on investment are actually returns from rent-seeking, anti-competitive/monopolistic behavior, and political capture. Essentially, it's money earning more money, with little or no real return in the form of physical capital (machines, buildings) or wages (labor income).

They also point out that Obamacare was one of the largest equality-increasing programs in recent history, which is a large part of why Republicans are finding it so hard to "repeal and replace".

Edited to fix an error.

edited 27th Apr '17 7:29:47 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#17353: Apr 27th 2017 at 6:45:41 AM

[up]If I remember correctly Joseph Stiglitz was saying something similar a couple of years ago when he was talking about how it was the value of "land" (using the broad economic definition of land) and not capital that was really driving the increasing inequality.

I was a little skeptical about his talk on this since I thought it could could just be his Georgist bias talking, but seeing it being somewhat corroborated by De Long and company is very interesting.

In general it's just good that people are building on Pikkety's work, even if it turns out that Pikkety wasn't entirely correct (perhaps especially so).

On a brighter note, it seems that Portugal's decision to turn away from austerity is paying off so far.

While this is good so far it should be noted that because Portugal doesn't control it's own currency it doesn't have the flexibility to engage in near unlimited deficit spending like the US, UK, and Japan might. If things start going downhill Portugal might find itself back in the position it was before.

majoraoftime Since: Jun, 2009
#17354: Apr 28th 2017 at 9:21:15 AM

Has anyone here read "Concrete Economics"? Thoughts?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#17355: Apr 28th 2017 at 9:22:39 AM

It's against OTC rules to post like that. Do not ask "have we read X" questions without at least summarizing the article or work and providing some kind of concrete question to engage conversation.

edited 28th Apr '17 1:01:33 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis Since: Feb, 2010
#17356: Apr 28th 2017 at 10:42:35 AM

I just picked up a copy of "After Piketty", and I am really looking forward to reading it.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#17357: Apr 29th 2017 at 12:54:22 PM

Wall Street freaked over American Airlines giving a pay raise to its workers:

American Airlines agreed this week to do something nice for its employees and arguably foresighted for its business by giving flight attendants and pilots a preemptive raise, in order to close a gap that had opened up between their compensation and the compensation paid by rival airlines Delta and United.

Wall Street freaked out, sending American shares plummeting. After all, this is capitalism and the capital owners are supposed to reap the rewards of business success.

“This is frustrating. Labor is being paid first again,” wrote Citi analyst Kevin Crissey in a widely circulated note. “Shareholders get leftovers.”

Indeed, major financial players were so outraged by American’s decision to pay higher wages that they punished airline stocks across the board. American itself took it hardest on the chin, of course, but the consensus among stock analysts was that higher pay at American could signal higher pay at other airlines too, with negative consequences for the overall industry.

Wall Street analysts hate the idea of paying workers

JP Morgan’s Jamie Baker was even more scathing than Crissey.

"We are troubled by AAL's wealth transfer of nearly $1 billion to its labor groups,” he wrote, suggesting that the move was not just contestable as a matter of business strategy, but somehow obviously illegitimate.

Labor’s share of income has been declining

Baker is certainly correct that for workers to get a larger slice of the pie would be a dramatic new precedent relative to recent trends. As a report last year from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development shows, in both the United States and other rich countries workers as a whole have been receiving a smaller and smaller share of national income.

Noah Smith of Bloomberg View recently wrote a column summarizing the various main theories professional economists have about why this is happening — monopoly power, global trade, robots, and landlords are the leading contenders for villain.

It’s less quantifiable, and thus not-beloved by academic economists, but my personal view is that what amounts to a management fad for treating workers poorly is an underrated factor here. The beating American took in the stock market — and the outraged tone of the analyst letters — is a clear sign of the constant pressure that modern companies are under to be as stingy as possible with their workforce.

Good ol' Wall Street.

Article by Vox here. I would suggest people to read it gives a good reading on how our national economy is structured.

"You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty."
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#17358: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:05:45 PM

Stock markets usually act like "braveness" was surgically removed from them.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#17359: Apr 29th 2017 at 1:16:10 PM

[up][up] This is why I hate the financial markets.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#17360: Apr 29th 2017 at 2:26:51 PM

It sounds like they would make slavery legal again if they could. What kind of beats are we dealing with?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#17361: Apr 29th 2017 at 11:14:47 PM

Looks like a 7% hit on Thursday and holding more or less there since.

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#17362: May 1st 2017 at 2:29:52 PM

Wall of text incoming, better than Trump's wall.

This one is part of an economic discussion over the minimum wage, where the likeability of a restaurant to close depending of two factors: the minimum wage and how good it is.

Now the question is, does raising the wages makes a lot of underperfoming and bad restaurants to close thus reducing the job pool or the raise will simply shut down the bad business and allow the employees simply move to another better restaurant?

The Econimst: Higher minimum wages may make bad restaurants close

But do job opportunities vanish, too?

WITH Republicans in charge in Washington, the federal minimum wage is unlikely to alter soon. But debate over the impact of local pay floors is as hot as ever. Little wonder: 18 states and 22 cities and counties raised their minimum wages at the start of 2017, according to the National Employment Law Project, a campaign group. Left-wing activists have for years pushed politicians to guarantee minimum pay of $15 an hour, more than twice the federal minimum of $7.25, which last went up in 2009.

A new working paper by Dara Lee Luca of Mathematica Policy Research and Michael Luca of Harvard Business School looks at the impact of higher minimum wages from a new angle. Traditionally, scholars have focused on whether or not minimum wages reduce employment. But the Lucas asked something else: does it force firms out of business? In particular, they looked at the restaurant industry—about half of minimum-wage workers toil over food—in the San Francisco Bay Area, which contains 15 of the 41 cities and counties that have changed their minimum wages since 2012. Their analysis relies on data from Yelp, a restaurant-review app favoured by millennials.

The Lucas found that a restaurant has, on average, a one-in-250 chance of closing in any given month. Whether or not the odds change when the minimum wage rises seems to depend on the quality of the eatery—or at least, on its Yelp rating. Restaurants with a coveted five-star score are barely affected; but less impressive joints are suddenly more likely to close (see chart). Restaurants with a middling rating are about 14% more likely to shut down when the minimum wage goes up by a dollar. (The authors also show that rating is distinct from price—in other words, a glorious but cheap takeaway has less to worry about than sellers of pricey but tasteless fare).

The result can be spun multiple ways. If those scholars who say that overall restaurant employment is unaffected by higher minimum wages are right, the implication of the new paper is that pay floors somehow force up the quality of restaurants. So long as one minimum-wage worker is much like another, a laid-off waiter will be able to find a new job somewhere serving better grub.

If those scholars are wrong, however, then the new paper supports what sceptics have said all along: that higher minimum wages, by threatening the viability of some firms, dent employment opportunities for the low-skilled. That should be food for thought.

China is suffering with poverty, so far the Xi Jinping administration is seeking to lessen the issue, but corruption and an economy that is slowing down only make solving the issue tougher.

China’s new approach to beating poverty

After decades of success, things are getting harder

MOST of Tian Shuang’s relatives are herding goats in the barren hills of Ningxia province, one of the poorest parts of western China. But last year Mr Tian came down to Minning, a small town in the valley, when the local government, as part of an anti-poverty programme, gave him a job growing mushrooms and ornamental plants in a commercial nursery garden. His name, address and income (20,000 yuan a year, or $2,900—six times the minimum wage) are written on a board by its greenhouse door.

MOST of Tian Shuang’s relatives are herding goats in the barren hills of Ningxia province, one of the poorest parts of western China. But last year Mr Tian came down to Minning, a small town in the valley, when the local government, as part of an anti-poverty programme, gave him a job growing mushrooms and ornamental plants in a commercial nursery garden. His name, address and income (20,000 yuan a year, or $2,900—six times the minimum wage) are written on a board by its greenhouse door.

Mr Tian’s name is also pinned up on the walls of the town hall, along with those of 409 other people in the area who, without help, would be living below the local poverty line of 3,200 yuan a year (this is about 40% above the national minimum, but still not enough to buy meat more than once a week, or to spend on new clothes). The town lists the problems and requirements of each of its poor people. Thirty-seven are poor because of health problems; 77—including some of Mr Tian’s relatives—live in isolated, inhospitable areas; 95 are physically handicapped, and so on. Also listed is the help given by the government to each person, such as the provision of work, a solar generator or a cow.

Minning is a model town. Its poverty-alleviation scheme was set up by Xi Jinping, China’s president, between 1999 and 2002 when he was governor of Fujian, a wealthy province in the south. (Fujian is twinned with Ningxia as part of a national attempt to spread expertise and money from rich to poor areas.) The system that Minning pioneered is now spreading throughout China. It focuses on poor individuals, and on drawing up specific plans for each, rather than merely helping poor places to develop in the hope that wealth will trickle down to the poorest. Other countries are trying this, too, but China is one of the few developing nations with a bureaucracy big enough and bossy enough to do it well.

China has been a hero of the world’s poverty-reduction efforts. It has eradicated poverty in cities (by its definition, at least) and reduced the number of rural people below the official poverty line of 2,300 yuan a year at 2010 prices from 775m in 1980 to 43m in 2016 (see chart). Its aim now is to have no one under the line by 2020.

Two years ago Mr Xi set this as one of the main jobs of his presidency. He calls it “the baseline task for building a moderately prosperous society” (which the Communist Party wants to create by its 100th birthday in 2021). Politically, poverty reduction matters because, as one party member says, unless China solves the problem of income inequality, the party’s legitimacy will be questioned. The party owes its power to a revolt fuelled by the miseries of the countryside. It does not want to be accused of failing to fulfil its mandate to eliminate them.

But the last stage of poverty reduction will be the most difficult. China’s success so far has been based largely on economic growth, which has generated jobs for the able-bodied. The final stage will be costly and complicated because many of the remaining poor are people who, because of physical or mental disabilities, cannot hold down jobs. A recent government survey found that 46% of China’s poor were poor because of their health.

Targeting individuals will help. By 2014 the government had compiled a “poverty-household registry” of every person and household below the poverty line. The following year it said a personalised poverty-alleviation plan must be drawn up for everyone included. The Philippines and Mexico also have such registries—they can help with monitoring the status of the poor, identifying their needs and (in theory) preventing waste and corruption.

There are signs that China’s is indeed improving its main form of poor relief, which is called “subsistence guarantee”, or dibao. The dibao programme has been notoriously inefficient. Many households that qualify for payments do not receive them because of corruption and bureaucratic failings. A survey by the World Bank found that between 2007 and 2009 just 10% of those that did get the dibao had household incomes below the poverty line (ie, 90% did not qualify for the handouts they were getting). The system is also corrupt. In 2015 an official in Henan province was found to have 267 bank deposit books in the names of extremely poor people, from which he had misappropriated 500,000 yuan of welfare payments.

But this may be changing. Poor people are getting more job training, as in Minning. There has been a crackdown on corruption. Ben Westmore of the OECD, a club mostly of rich countries, recently trawled through household data from five provinces collected by researchers at Peking University. He found that in 2014 about a third of rural households receiving dibao paymentswere below the poverty line—not good, but better than 10%. In Guangdong province in the south, an early starter in its focus on individual needs, more than half of recipients were below the line.

Still, there is a long way to go: most poor households still do not get dibao money. In the sample studied by Mr Westmore, three-quarters of them did not. It hardly helps that the poverty registry and dibao data are kept by different government departments; the two are not linked.

The dibao programme, though financed largely by the national government, is administered locally. This means local areas may set their own poverty lines and benefits. Some thresholds are far below the national minimum, and payments are barely enough to live on. Total dibao spending peaked in 2013 and has been falling since then—partly because governments are getting stingier. China spends a mere 0.2% of GDP on the dibao system, far below comparable programmes elsewhere. Indonesia’s poverty relief costs 0.5% of GDP.

Worse, some poor people are not even included in the registry. In a village of 100 poor households in Shanxi province, only ten families are in it—friends of the party boss. If the registry is flawed, poverty relief is all the more likely to be flawed too.

All these efforts are aimed only at extreme poverty in the countryside. The government claims the urban kind does not exist, ie, that no one in cities has less than 2,300 yuan a year. But that minimum is too low for cities, where living costs are higher. Using more realistic thresholds, Mr Westmore found that urban poverty was actually higher than rural poverty in four of the five provinces covered by the data he used.

At current rates of reduction (more than 10m fewer people annually in extreme poverty), Mr Xi should be able meet his target by 2020. It will be hailed as a great achievement. But huge government effort will still be needed to help the worse-off. It will not be the end of poverty in China.

edited 1st May '17 2:30:19 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#17363: May 1st 2017 at 2:35:16 PM

I'd be willing to bet that the hypothesis that quality determines restaurant viability when minimum wages rise is solid.

edited 1st May '17 2:35:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#17364: May 1st 2017 at 2:41:04 PM

There are minimum wage workers in the Bay Area?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#17365: May 1st 2017 at 8:19:47 PM

[up]California's minimum wage is higher then almost any other state, not that that's affordable in the bay area anyway.

On a different subject, I was reading this article on Vox about a number of labor reforms that could be done to increase Union power in the United States, the two big suggestions being to institute sectoral collective bargaining, and use the Ghent System

To be honest a lot of it sounds a little "pie in sky" in terms of being able to be implemented in the US, but it would be interesting to learn more about how these systems work in a practical sense and it'd be nice to hear from people who have those systems in their country.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#17366: May 1st 2017 at 8:21:44 PM

[up] Yeah, anything with the word "collective" in it would lead to cries of "COMMIES" in the USA.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#17367: May 2nd 2017 at 6:31:42 AM

Looking forward to seeing how this goes, though the bold portion makes it look more like a hybrid of basic income and a a means-tested program.

That and the fact that it's specifically targeted to lower-income individuals has many UBI advocates skeptical of the experiment, since it's not true Universal Basic Income.

No and no. That's how a classic UBI/MBI works. You provide a certain amount of money and then gradually pull it away as the recipient earns money (while trying to avoid disincentivizing working), and if they get to zero, then they start paying taxes on anything above 200% of basic income.

If it helps explain this, Milton Friedman referred to basic income as a "negative income tax," largely because he was selling it to Libertarians (back in those long-gone days when Libertarians understood that the basic functions of government needed to be paid for).

edited 2nd May '17 6:31:55 AM by Ramidel

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#17368: May 2nd 2017 at 6:41:22 AM

There are two approaches one can take to UBI/MBI. One is the means-tested version you mention, which takes the form (effectively) of a negative income tax for those earning below a certain threshold. This can be subject to abuse and/or corruption, of course, as people seek to report as low an income as possible in order to earn benefits.

The other way to do it is to give everyone a certain amount of money regardless of their income or other measures. This is naturally progressive: if you make zero, then getting $20K/year can be the difference between life and death. If you make $1M, then it's a drop in the bucket. Of course, it's also a much harder sell.

Part of the underlying rationale behind the latter concept, in particular, is that automation and technology may continue replacing labor to the point where there isn't enough work for everyone to do no matter how much "gumption" they show. Thus, any income support program that is predicated on the idea that we expect as many people as possible to have gainful employment is simply not going to work in the long term. Instead, we need to shift social expectations towards a post-scarcity model where doing useful work is a matter of choice instead of necessity.

edited 2nd May '17 6:43:57 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#17369: May 2nd 2017 at 6:53:05 AM

[up][up][up]We already have collective bargaining in many parts of the US (mostly for public sector employees), but it is only between workers and individual businesses as opposed to being across an entire sector of the economy, which is what is being suggested in the article.

[up][up]Because there are people who will not be receiving money under the program there are many who would not call it UBI, because it explicitly isn't universal.

As [up] said there are several different models for Basic Income that can generally be categorized in to those two types, and I find that many UBI proponents tend to be less favorable towards the negative income tax model for varies reasons, such as still being vulnerable to the "welfare trap" problems that current means-tested programs have, among other things.

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#17370: May 2nd 2017 at 8:37:48 AM

[up] The welfare trap occurs when getting a job causes you to abruptly lose access to the benefits you were getting, possibly getting less income after accepting the job. Tax brackets don't normally work that way, since each tax rate is applied only to the corresponding bracket, which makes income after tax an increasing function of income before tax.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#17371: May 2nd 2017 at 9:08:13 AM

Yes, the "welfare trap" is an artifact of means-tested welfare programs with arbitrary and often conflicting cutoff thresholds, so that earning $100 more per year might abruptly cost you $2,000 in benefits. It's a major reason for the decline in marriage rates among the poor, since filing jointly can cause you to lose benefits.

edited 2nd May '17 9:08:41 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#17372: May 2nd 2017 at 9:11:16 AM

[up][up]Normally no, but the EITC, for example, effectively imposed marginal tax rates up to 100% as people approached the income limit of the program. UBI is supposed to avoid that as additional income doesn't yield reduced benefits.

edited 2nd May '17 9:38:45 AM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#17373: May 2nd 2017 at 9:12:05 AM

Maybe instead of a cutoff, it should be a graded reduction from "no wage" to "salary slightly above the maximum amount of welfare disbursable" so that there is a through-going incentive for better salaries.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#17374: May 2nd 2017 at 9:22:49 AM

[up][up][up][up]In the case of the Ontario program, the amount of money a person received is offset by 50% of their earned income, which seems like a pretty harsh marginal tax rate on those benefits, even if it may not be as harsh as other benefits programs in Ontario and the rest of Canada.

edited 2nd May '17 9:23:25 AM by Mio

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#17375: May 2nd 2017 at 9:39:16 AM

Worth noting is that an MBI can also replace minimum wage laws. Say that every citizen is automatically entitled to X dollars per annum upon reaching their majority (we can also stipulate some degree of support for children, but that's not immediately relevant to this discussion), whether they work or not. That can be direct cash or goods and services; it's also not immediately relevant.

So, say they want to go work to get some extra money to buy luxuries, or because it makes them feel useful. It's a bit jarring to have that employment suddenly jump their income up by a significant degree, and it undermines part of the reason for MBI. It also causes weird disincentives for employers, since there is already an immense tax on business profits in this system to pay for the MBI — a tax which effectively subsidizes all labor wages.

Thus, instead of working for $10/hour at a low-skill job, you might work for $1/hour. This is still more money than you'd be getting at baseline, and it can get you more stuff, but not immensely more stuff. As the value of your work output goes up, of course your income would increase accordingly, but it would flatten the curve so there isn't a sudden huge jump in wealth for people who have jobs vs. people who don't.

The MBI and wage scales could be adjusted to match labor supply with labor demand to prevent shortages and/or surpluses of labor and consequent market perturbations. For example, if business owners are having a hard time finding employees (for the few jobs that can't be automated), the minimum bonus wage for working could be increased to provide labor incentives.

edited 3rd May '17 7:13:15 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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