Patriotism and Political Discourse

Another factor to consider is just how extremely individualistic we are. For many (most?) Americans, collective action to solve common problems is seen as a necessary evil, not a desirable thing, in itself. Its generally considered ideal if every person can pursue their own interests, independently of everyone else. This does not seem to be the case in Europe, or elsewhere in the world.

And we Americans are well aware of this. I think that there is a presumption among Americans that what we like over here won't be accepted in other places (and vice versa). Americans believe that our cultural values are unique, and I think there is some truth to that.

The end result is that if you ask an American how, say, gay rights can be improved around the world, you may get an answer somewhat along the lines of "Well, in the US we are doing X, other countries will have come up with their own answers" (because what works for us won't work for them, and vice versa).

@ Ace:

Japan is also very densely-populated, and Western Europe is too. That also affects Public Transport, and of course, Government. Since National Government is often a few hours away at most, they can react a lot quicker then the Capital being, say, 2000 miles away. And, yes, the attitude is "What can the Government do about this", even if they can't do anything...

edited 29th Oct '12 10:35:03 AM by Greenmantle

Just as an aside, there's a not-insignificant problem with comparing Japan to the US, in regards to earthquakes: no US cities were bombed to the ground within the last century. It's easier to work from the ground up when you're starting with nothing but rubble-strewn ground.

(Yes, I know that's oversimplifying the state of post-WW 2 Japan a good bit. This is a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. )

Well Japan is so tightly packed that they don't have much of a choice. In southern california, we've got a state that is several times the size of Japan as a country, and thus have plenty of space to spread out from.

^

Geography does the type of Politics of an area, after all. Another aside, Geography is one reasons why Japanese and European cars are different from American ones: roads are narrower and more twisty, and since they are more people and shorter distances, cars don't need to be as large and need better handling.

I remember seeing some Japanese movie which took place (and was filmed) maybe 10 or 15 years after the war, and it was interesting how devastated some places were even at that point.

The arguments I hear over gay rights, speaking as an American, seem only to be 'US-specific' arguments inasmuch as they are taking place in an American context, as others have said. It would be stupid not to bring up applicable laws or court decisions or whatever, since they will affect how you can reach your goal, but that seems to be the sort of discussion you get when you need to do tactics, and the different sides both are perfectly happy to do the strategy of why their universal morality supports helping or hurting gay people, before they move on to the logistics of making it happen.

It's also one of those things where talking about problems in a global sense tends to attract a lot of negative comments, in the "look at those Americans trying to tell us what to do" sort of way.

Ah, yes, that. If an American had opinions on international standards, you would say that either 1) those are already in place in the rest of the world you backwards caveman or 2) your opinion is wrong.

I mean no offence, but it sometimes seems to me that the US suffers quite heavily from a need to be a special snowflake at all costs.

Yeah. it's called American Exceptionalism, and it is, in my opinion, as an American, one of the worst things about America. It's stupid and creates a horribly xenophobic culture.

edited 30th Oct '12 3:10:53 PM by deathpigeon

The Other Wiki: American exceptionalism

It's something that does the US no favour abroad, and probably helps to spread anti-Americanism...

I got a lot of shit when I went for my American citizenship. My extended family had no problem with me being raised here, or my parents eventually becoming citizens. (My grandfather was a citizen first, but he never forced his kids to be.) I did it to go to college free because all the scholarships I qualified for were only available if I was a citizen.

Now that being said, I've kept my Irish Passport and kept things open so my son can petition for Irish citizenship if he wants.

America is big on itself. And I get why, they've done a lot of awesome things. But I think we've been riding steam for a while. This recession is really making people think. However I think a lot of America's individuality doesn't come from a good plan per se, but rather just for the sake of not being Europe, like with socialized healthcare.

As a first gen swimmer, I can say what Europe gets right is pretty cool. But they've got their issues too. So we (Americans) need to stop this weird, uncalled for pissing contest and just chill. Who cares if we copy Europe in some ways? I'd love their health and K-12 education systems in general!

Ironically, patriotism is one of the few things that Americans have in common. With no single dominant ethnic group, language, religion, or other unifying characteristic, our shared identity as Americans, and a sense of pride that comes with it, is the one thing that holds us together. Team America!

And I don't even have that. I fail as an American.

Most of us speak English.

And How!

I'm not even a pureblooded American. I'm a halfblood.

Despite the massive flaws in the US education system, it'd be awful if it became more European. The ideals behind ours are good. They're just very poorly executed.

I agree very much with the OP. I don't like American exceptionalism, or the watered-down version we have in Britain (the phrase 'Great Britain'/'Great British' is being massively overused in political speeches under the current coalition). To be honest I don't really get patriotism at all. I like being British, but I'm not proud of it; ditto being Irish. Neither of them is much of an achievement.

I was discussing this with some friends a while ago and suggested that maybe the reason I think in that way is that I don't identify very strongly with any one country. One parent is Irish, one English, and I've been brought up in England and Wales. If I had a stronger national identity with one of those countries maybe I could be more patriotic about it.

edited 1st Nov '12 6:48:02 AM by cityofmist

I just tried to imagine what would happen if the Netherlands came with their own 'Dutch exceptionalism'.

Then I laughed so hard.

I can see what you mean. But you've still got a lot to be proud of, don't forget that!

edited 1st Nov '12 3:50:10 PM by Greenmantle

I hate Patriotism... Just an excuse to follow a worthless cause blindly! A good country full of people should know that disagreements and revolutions in all forms are necessary evils for democracy of any kind TO THRIVE and not to slowly morph into fascism, like America is suffering now, period (if not felt elsewhere)!

It'd be closer to true, because the Dutch are pretty awesome.

Great Britain has the crown to rally around. The Netherlands are small enough that they dont need anything like that.

Aside from Rangers fans and old ladies who collect William & Kate tea pots, attitudes to the Monarchy is one of total indifference. It's certainly not something "to rally around"; I'm probably biased, but I'd say that all there is "to rally around" is a (rapidly fading) sense of tradition for the sake of tradition.

Besides, the Netherlands does have a Queen - Queen Beatrix.

edited 1st Nov '12 11:11:05 AM by BestOf