Dota 2

Just had my first game where I needed to pause... for a pee break.

edited 26th Sep '14 3:14:03 PM by MetaSkipper

Crimson Guard's on the website. Took them long enough.

These changes to gold bounties from killing heroes has gotten a lot of fans up in arms at how Dota is RUINED FOREVER. But these types of fans will outrageously overreact to the most minor of alterations and hate them preemptively.

Eh, I dunno. Games are a lot more swingy, and I'm not sure if I like the change. I mean I like the idea, but the numbers really need some adjustment. Giving out like 5000 gold for a well timed kill seems rather excessive. The unstable equilibrium is a thing for a reason. Heck, I'm pretty sure I heard some people joking around about how feeding is an actual role now. Make the enemy team all nice and fat and then harvest them for the sweet gold and exp. Heh.

That said there was a patch earlier today that adjusted the rate of gold gains a bit when in a 1v1 situation. So the Frog knows the execution needs some work, but the idea is sticking around, which I don't mind. We might see more adjustment to the numbers later.

I have lost a couple games that I felt were well in hand, and I very strongly suspect that the new system may have something to do with it. I like the idea of it having a stronger catch-up mechanic to it, but right now it feels like there's too much of that. Like, one fluke kill shouldn't get you 2000 gold for someone who doesn't even have a kill streak, you know?

More tweaks.

All of the pros complained about the gold changes, so I can't blame Icefrog for nerfing it this quickly.

Techies throwing a party.

edited 27th Sep '14 1:50:27 PM by Eldrake

Whew. That seems a lot more reasonable. I mean, being rewarded with half the difference in net worth between the everyone on both teams? I'm honestly kinda surprised they didn't see that one coming.

edited 27th Sep '14 5:51:17 PM by Lionrider

Even the almighty and infallible Icefrog can make mistakes.

Yep. Remember old Drow and Centaur Warrunner? Obviously Icefrog will tweak the numbers so it's not so ridiculous, but the base idea will still be there. He's been doing this for years, so he's pretty experienced at this at least.

Still, some people did overreact to the changes. Stuff like the map because change is bad, and eventually getting used to it.◊

edited 27th Sep '14 2:53:57 PM by Marioguy128

It's extremely common for a character in a MOBA to be either greatly overpowered or near-useless, requiring some hefty changes in a week or two. Personally, I think that it's just greatly difficult to balance new characters and how they interact with other characters when there are already dozens of them. It might be impossible to accurately predict what players are going to do.

When I was playing Mirana yesterday, I got myself low on health during a teamfight. I Leapt away, both to escape and to buff my allies... and got stuck between some trees. Luckily my TP Scroll was off cooldown, but I wonder if it would've been better to wait out Leap's cooldown.

I would find it hilarious if someone took the heroes and other resources from Dota 2 and used the Source engine to recreate the gameplay from Warcraft III. I'm not sure if such a thing is possible.

It's underway. I know that some people have been working on worker-resource mechanics already.

How fast do you think you can go?

Speaking of unreleased heroes, any idea on when we're going to get the last four of the Originals? And are there any you're particularly excited for? All the ones left are from after the two or three times I got to play the original Dot A, so I have no idea what to expect. That being said, I think Arc Warden in particular looks ridiculous. I mean yeah, 'every hero looks OP on paper,' but even ignoring whether or not he's very strong or even too strong, he just looks fun.

EDIT: After putting some thought into it (reading is hard), I'd be willing to bet those big updates they've mentioned probably involve at least one or two of them.

edited 29th Sep '14 9:04:23 PM by Lionrider

The short, and probably most realistic answer, is on Valve Time. We might see a big update around the major holidays (BY THE DECREE OF THE ONLY KING THAT MATTERS comes to mind), but we probably can't predict when the next heroes are released. I imagine that we'll also be seeing the jump to Source 2 in one of those big updates as well.

One of the best Dota 2 games I have ever seen, both for the gameplay and the casting.

@#$@#$@#@@!

I had such a wonderful game with Sven, even if it's low MMO playing in a cyber cafe. Early game, I got off quite the kills and supporting well.

All of the sudden, my friend Juggernaut just left the game. But in the same time, so does the enemy Omniknight. We were still making a push though. But then...

We cannot get past the barrack tower mid, and then what's worse, the enemy Viper (that I bullied in lane before) just continued to rack up kill against my friends. Then the enemy Drow Ranger (that I also bullied in lane) was away from sight and turns out she's pushing the top lane alone, uncontested and getting fat. I was thinking to get top, but everyone tends to go mid mid mid and getting slaughtered by Viper and a suddenly competent bot-controlled Omniknight (We ended up at Limited Heroes style).

I had enough sense to buy Blademail and Gem of True Sight to counter Viper and Drow Ranger, but by that time, with everyone else dying like flies a lot... The game is lost, even if my Sven goes with the score 19 kills 4 deaths (and a few assists, my Sven ate enemy Venge and Tidehunter like breakfast, and maybe Drow and Viper when soloing, but when 4v1, not so much, especially when Omni uses Ult). So is this about me not carrying harder and failed to guess the enemy movement, or my allies are just dumbasses? Did I actually improve? I'm not sure what's the measurement of improvement here...

Others:

• I still wonder if I should have bought Mask of Madness instead of Armlet of Mordiggian.
• I think it's because it's my first game in the new patch, so I was thinking to invest for Aghanim for Sven. Looks like I should have invested for Tarrasque and Daedalus instead (and Blink Dagger too, prolly).

edited 30th Sep '14 7:08:59 AM by ChrisX

Well, if you could provide the game ID, I could give more direct tips. Always remember that Dota 2 is a team game, and always remember that you can always do better. I'd need at least a few more things to know where you went wrong.

• What were the whole teams?
• How did your team itemize?
• Why couldn't you break high ground?

From what you've told me, though:

• You should have rotated to gank Drow if she was by herself.
• Omniknight is one of the best late-game supports, and Guardian Angel is one of the best support ultimates. Consider buying a Diffusal Blade whenever you face an Omniknight, and use those purges.
• A carry will not win a game taking on a team by him or herself. A carry will win a game with his team backing him or her up.
• It sounds like your team made the mistake of trying to help a lost teammates, and just going in one by one. Let someone lost go, regroup, and re-engage is possible.

Carries are judged like all other roles on many things (positioning, risk assessment, execution, map awareness, etc.). But the one thing that carries are judged by more than any other role is how efficiently they farm.

• Are they getting all the last hits they can safely get?
• Do they have efficient jungle rotation patterns? Supports that stack are a big help here.
• Do they know when to stop farming and when to start engaging? Carries should almost never take part in early kills unless they're assured or can be taken without losing farm.

As for your itemization:

• Sven lacks a lifesteal mechanic and is pretty slow. Mask of Madness is a better choice.
• Aghs is usually something I would suggest on support Sven a second core item. Maybe you can take it earlier on core Sven if you running a tri-core team, but you still want Blink Dagger, BKB, and even Daedelus first.

Just today, I was playing Gyrocopter and noticed an ally Faceless Void chasing a nearly dead enemy into the bot lane jungle, while we were both playing for Radiant. I thought of helping him, but then realized that Void needed that kill much more than I did, so I went back to lane to shop. A few seconds later, I saw that Void had failed to kill the other guy, who had made a clean getaway. What I'm trying to say here is that it's sometimes hard to tell when you should back off and when your carry actually does need your help. Since my record is only 28-20, I have a lot to learn.

Also, I played a game as Omniknight and it was the first game where I bothered to place Observer Wards. I put them in areas I thought were common gank paths, except for one I placed just outside the Roshan pit. Too bad it didn't seem to do much, since I never saw any enemy go through those areas. Also, I find it annoying that the game never tells you that True Sight destroys Wards.

Just now I played an all-random game (me as Juggernaut) with a Sniper who decided that the majority of his teamfight contributions should be to target a full HP enemy with assassinate, and then bravely and dashingly run away with Shadow Blade, and a Disruptor who decided that it was important to build Linken's Sphere for reasons I cannot comprehend, when a Force Staff and/or Mekansm would have helped him better. My attempts to stop these two from feeding the enemy centaur ended up with me feeding too. Then the endgame was insanity with all of the enemy team's raxes down and yet we're still having trouble bringing down their ancient because Venge just swaps them away for a pickoff and we can't coordinate like our lives depended on it so we walked in one by one. Meanwhile Bristleback, our well-fed tank, decided to AFK while Centaur and Spectre took down our mid and bot raxes and AFK'd once again while we worked to find a way to destroy the ancient. Also, Bristleback and Disruptor bitching at each other.

Thankfully, Troll Warlord was a cooperative and friendly fellow (ironically) and ulted me when I told him too (I guess he appreciated when I killed his lane competition and wanted to pay back the favor). One BKB click and I took down the ancient on my own because the only enemy present to stop mewas Vengeful Spirit and Crystal Maiden.. Meanwhile, enemy Enchantress was bitching about patch 6.82 and how long the games are.

All in all, "gg wp no re"

By the way, Chris X, how in the world did you bully VIPER as Sven?

edited 30th Sep '14 11:27:31 AM by Eldrake

Kill-stealing is never a thing. Unless you have somewhere else to be urgently, always help with getting kills.

Doesn't that result in the carry getting less gold?

If your carry's only source of gold is from hero kills and not creeps, there's a pretty big problem. Killstealing doesn't exist and anyone saying otherwise are those who care too much about their K/D/A score.

The main reason to kill other heroes is for the EXP and to deprive them of much needed gold. The gold reward is merely a bonus.

edited 30th Sep '14 11:59:45 AM by Eldrake

As I said earlier, it's usually more important for a carry to be farming instead of getting involved in kills. Later on, killing a hero does give a bounty, but the real benefit is removing their presence on the map, which gives you more leeway to take objectives.

In fact, giving supports kill gold early is often pretty nice, since they tend to benefit most from item spikes, and won't be farming as hard as the carries.

edited 30th Sep '14 12:06:32 PM by MetaSkipper

Such a thing as kill stealing doesn't really exist in dota, unless you intentionally hold back with spells to get the last hit. Apart from that, dead is dead. "Kill secured" as they call it. Exactly for the reason you mentioned - an enemy getting away is bad. Carry gets assist gold anyway. There are some special situations where you MIGHT consider letting someone else get the kill, if you can absolutely guarantee that he will die and have a spell in backup to ensure it - but apart from that: When in doubt, kill. I've over 4k dota 2 games, and I think it happened once that someone complained about a kill steal, and everyone else thought he's stupid. ^^

Bullying Viper with Sven was possible, because I had Juggernaut with me. He and Drow wasn't exactly playing with care early game. Storm Hammer + Blade Fury mostly lead to dead squishies like them. Unfortunately Jugs left after the top tower is down.

To answer Meta:

• My team: Sven (Me), Juggernaut (Leave), Sniper, Razor, Lich. Enemy Team: Viper, Drow, Tidehunter, Vengeful Spirit, Omniknight (Leaver)
• I think I didn't quite notice how they they itemized, but it seemed pretty standard on their hero build. Mask of Madness for Sniper, for example, but he didn't get to buy things like Desolator or Shadow Blade (Drow bought that one, and I'm the guy who had to keep one spare slot for Gem of True Sight). No one bought Blade Mail except me though.
  • If you ask me how I buy my items though, it's Power Treads (later replaced by Boots of Travel in a vain attempt to split push), Armlet of Mordiggian, Black King Bar, Blade Mail, one slot attempting to complete the Aghanim (I only carry Ogre Club) and Gem of True Sight. In about that buying order (Travel is after Blade Mail)
• Mostly everyone started shooting BELOW the stairs thus missing the tower hits, and letting Viper take advantage of high ground (he got lots of Triple Kills over there). When I go up there myself with everything ready, Omniknight popped up his ult and screwed my day over. Also you need to remember that enemy Omniknight is a leaver, so it's taken care by bot (Limited Heroes mode)

• Yeah, not ganking Drow was my mistake, but we had the bad habit of being too concentrated on mid. No one seemed to want to go to top or bottom, so even if I do it, I'd be alone. But maybe I should have done that instead.
• Again, like I said, Omniknight was controlled by a bot. I think my team lost a lot of vigor when the one that left was instead a carry (Juggernaut). I suppose even when bot-controlled, Omniknight is still a threat.
• At first I tried a discretion, but in between my team's insistence of taking on mid and failing and failing and failing to the point that I'd rather deal with Drow, both Drow and Viper have been greatly fed.
• I think the mistake is the typical MOBA mistake. "Let's end fast, just push mid!". Keep doing that and they became Viper's food. By the time they realize it, it's too late. I guess my mistake was 'not telling them "STOP GOING MID."'

• Not sure of how it does, but during laning phase, our team dominates, so I don't think their early creep scores was stellar. Most of their incomes come from Viper feeding on my friends, and Drow being let to farm safely on top while Viper did so.
• I don't think they jungle. They played defensive. I suppose Drow jungles while Viper held my friends at bay. I have no idea on how Venge and Tide went because they aren't usually standing a chance against me.
• I think that's about it. Drow was completely out of team fights until she destroyed my top barracks, in which she's already heavily fed. Viper seems content on standing around the enemy base while my friends futilely push, until he's fed enough and felt confident in charging forward.

• Yeah, maybe next time I should just go buy Mask, not Omelet, when I'm kinda ahead at first. I've seen people using Mask of Madness + Blade Mail to get Clinkz killed fast, that should have worked wonders on Viper and Drow.
• .... I knew it was a mistake to try investing Aghanim when at that point my role should be about a carry.

edited 30th Sep '14 4:43:15 PM by ChrisX

Whenever I played against him, Viper always seemed unapproachable, except when I'm a ranged hero. Maybe the problem is that I panic at the first sight of damage.

There are people saying that Sven getting an Agh upgrade was a terrible idea because Sven can't farm for an Aghanim Scepter. I don't see how that matters, other than being really worried that some people will rush it, before realizing that there are better items to get, but it still feels misplaced.

• Viper... isn't squishy. He must have been playing really badly.
• Do bots take over in LH mode? You sure he wasn't being controlled by another player?
• I would have gone Treads, Mask of Madness or Blink, Blink Dagger or Black King Bar, Black King Bar or Blink, Daedelus, Heart of Tarrasque, Boots of Travel.

You asked about how to measure your worth as a carry. That's why I explained how to judge yourself. Do the last hit training. See how well you last hit in real games. Go into the jungle and take a stack when the wave's pushed out. Don't engage unless you really have to or you team rotates to your lane for a gank.

In other news, finally finished my last MMR calibration game. 1328!