Arrow. Green Arrow tv show.

Sara struck me as being too much of a plot device to create bad decisions and drive Ollie make poor but dramatic decisions in Season 2. Both in the past and in the present, she's the instrument of Ollie's complacency and angst - arguably taking that role from Laurel in Season 1 while Laurel herself went through a depression arc.

On the other hand, Season 2 really cemented that Arrow is just as much the story of the Lances (including Laurel) as it is the story of the Queens, something I started liking more and more the more it went on and the writers started getting in tune with the characters more. That said, there's a bit of backlash against the Lances because of that, along the lines of "I don't think the writers should be focusing on the things they choose to focus on, but the things I want them to focus on" (often Felicity, I've noticed), which is pretty common whenever shows like this have different kinds of characters they focus on.

In any case, I've never had a problem with Laurel's character in general (at least, not any moreso than any other character in this show, and especially not in comparison to Sara), though there have been specific instances where she's really bugged me, which is kind of a trend with characters in this show (especially in the first season).

edited 1st Feb '15 5:31:24 PM by KnownUnknown

Which is exactly my point. Every character on this show has done something unlikable but it's Laurel who consistently gets more flak for it. Personally I find her just as sympathetic as anyone else on this show, especially given how much of her suffering is caused by other people's selfish mistakes. She's someone trying to be a hero while making mistakes and dealing with adversity in her personal life. That seems to work just fine with Spider-Man and Daredevil.

edited 1st Feb '15 5:35:46 PM by windleopard

Come to think of it, my big complaint about Laurel (That she's a giant idiot) kind of applies to all the characters on this show. Like, I want to reserve judgement until the season finishes playing out, but is it safe to say all of season three has been an Idiot Plot? As far as I can tell, it's all been some overly elaborate scheme by Merlyn to get the League off his back or something by using brainwash drugs on his daughter to force Oliver to agree to get killed by Ra's, which ultimately did nothing to stop the League from coming after Merlin and Thea. Is that about right? Meanwhile Laurel's being suicidally incompetent at being a vigilante.

Was it really necessary to make her so awful at fighting? I know she's just starting out, but I don't remember Roy being this bad fresh off his training. Granted, I'm sure Oliver is a better teacher than Wildcat, but still, I don't watch superhero vigilante shows to see the vigilantes get their butts kicked.

Oh, and that's not even getting into the bullcrap with keeping the truth from Detective Lance and Thea's reasoning for siding with Malcolm "I Love Genocide" Merlyn.

That just makes it sound to me like I should hate every character as much as I hate Laurel, not that I should hate Laurel less.

edited 1st Feb '15 5:56:08 PM by spashthebandragon

There are actually people online who still think she's had it too easy. In fact, if she were being portrayed on the same level of Roy who's a rookie there'd be just as many complaints. Nothing this character does will ever gain her universal approval it seems.

[[That just makes it sound to me like I should hate every character as much as I hate Laurel, not that I should hate Laurel less.]]

Either of those options is reasonable tbh.

Alright, fine, then, I hate Laurel for being horrible and making horrible decisions, but I also equally hate Oliver and Thea and, uh, I guess Malcolm gets a pass for being crazy and evil. Seriously, though, Oliver had better have a really good reason for getting his butt killed by Ra's that I simply have yet to realize.

I think one of the things that happens a lot with shows like that is that people put certain characters on pedestals and siphon all their hate onto other characters, neither of which is a particularly good way to look at characters.

edited 1st Feb '15 6:08:42 PM by KnownUnknown

I think though, even bearing in mind that both Oliver and Laurel have both done morally dubious things, I still like Oliver better as a character. Morality aside, he's stoic and badass, and he tends to bottle up his emotions. That doesn't make him a great human being, but it's more entertaining to watch than Laurel, who at her worst (season 2) acted whiny and entitled.

edited 1st Feb '15 6:15:45 PM by spashthebandragon

I just don't like Laurel's acting/mannerisms.

I have beef with her shoes.

And where the heck are her fishnets?

I will say this about Laurel as Black Canary, at least there aren't those silly flotation devices installed on the front of her suit.

Clearly the lack of Most Common Superpower is hindering her badassness.

[I still like Oliver better as a character. Morality aside, he's stoic and badass]

That's kind of a shallow way to look at characters don't you think?

Wait, those things were supposed to be breasts?

x8: When you say "stoic and badass", I immediately think of Batman, not Green Arrow. I'd really rather have Oliver be a bit more funny than Frowny Mc Sulking - I guess it won't happen now because Barry.

Honestly, atm I'm indifferent to Laurel because, a bit, she's inconsistent.

Season 1 we had he as defense lawyer for CNRI and the whole Tommy/Ollie thing

Season 2 we have her first as angry prosecutor and then back on team Arrow, with some addiction issues at the side.

Season 3 we (finally?) have her as Black Canary, a position (and let us be honest here) that was *always* going to be hers at some point by virtue of her being Dinah Lance with an extra name.

It just feels a bit like they didn't knew what to do with her in Season 2 while she couldn't be Black Canary (yet?). Its less Character development and more "give the char something to do until we place it where it belongs", which to me had me go "eh" a lot.

I will probably change this indifference if she now develops more properly as Black Canary.

Also, adding to that, I think at least some part of the Laurel dislike is that some people consider her "designated endgame"m again on account of her being Dinah Lance with an extra name. The lack of chemistry (as opposed to Ollie/Felicity) with that perception is probably turning a lot of folks against the character, because once thing I have noticed as trend in superhero series is that viewers tend to dislike the endgame couple (Lana/Clark in the first seasons of smallville?) when its enforced *just* because of comics-couple status.

edited 2nd Feb '15 2:23:18 AM by 3of4

Lana/Clark were not the endgame couple in Smallville. That's actually why the pairing was hated.

In a Smallville context of the series Lana and Clark were "endgame." Lana Lang was Clarks Highschool Sweetheart. True later seasons feature Lois but in all honesty these should be called "Metropolis" anyway.

What I mean with "Endgame" is that the relationship is going to happen, not just as fling and sex but relationship. And if there is no chemistry to that regard and yu can still see it coming...eh.

The problem with Laurel is that she is a horrible written character. In the first season she was the designated love interest and constant damsel in distress paired with the Faux action girl label, and to top the whole thing her actions resulted in the death of a popular character. Who mostly died to give her and Oliver some character development. Then the second season came around and Laurel is stuck in permanent "It's all about me" mode, first by blaming the Arrow for Thommy, then by constantly whining towards everyone how hard her life is, usually people who had it much, much worse. Meanwhile we get a Canary who isn't "Faux Action" at all, has some really heartwarming scenes with Quentin AND a backstory we rarely get for female heroines. Which is then killed off at the start of season three just so that this other character who is easily the worst written female character on the show can take up her mantle. I don't blame the audience at all that they don't want to deal with a character which presents more or less everything you can do wrong while writing a female character.

Arrow's biggest screw up has always been with Laurel and the whole Black Canary plot.

Why in hell did they throw out the original backstory involving taking up mum's mantle, having an actual metahuman canary cry in favour of all this convoluted nonsense? Hell talk about a waste of casting with Alex Kingston.

Because until they figured out that doing The Arrow Knight Tv show was long term stupid and decided to introduce real superpowers with Flash to the verse they didn't want any real superpowers and thus mutant canary cry was unlikely.

Bringing Tommy here is all kinds of pointless. He died to give development to Oliver, Laurel, Malcolm and Thea, so you absolutely can't blame Laurel for his death. And I would add that blaming any character for how s/he deals with grief is always unfair, because it is something that has no rule whatsoever; it's not because some character turn their grief into greatness that it is a)immediately true b)a universal rule.

I actually like to see someone not being a robot about the death of a character. It's refreshing. As much as I love Felicity, I think that considering how emotional she is, it is completely absurd for her to be back in the game in less than two episodes (which is what, a couple of days?). Diggle is a soldier, and Roy is extremely focused - plus he is not Ollie's LI - but Felicity loses it and...one episode later, it's fine, she's over it. In that regard, Laurel taking it so hard is much more logical.

Also, "people having a harder time than her", I also have to disagree. At the beginning of season two, Laurel thought her sister had died, because of her ex-boyfriend (who she thought died too for a time), which caused his dad to become an alcoholic and her mother to leave them, and when she finds happiness with someone kind and faithful, that person dies too. She is not whiny. She really had a crappy life. Diggle "just" lost a brother. Felicity "just" had her boyfriend put to jail. Laurel got the whole package.

edited 2nd Feb '15 5:26:49 AM by Julep

But she isn't whining toward Diggle or Felicity, she is whining towards Oliver and Sara, both people who got tortured in their past, and she knows it. She has seen the scars.

They could have killed Tommy in multiple ways. That he died in order to rescue someone who didn't listen to four different people warning her to leave the Glades, was more than unfortunate. Especially if you consider that he had to die for a couple of files which were useless in the end either way, because the office never opened up again. I would say it is the most senseless death ever, but they beat this one with Sara. All those were bad writing decisions which understandable alinated the fans.

The thing is you can spend ages to defend everything they let Laurel do in the series. And you are right, other characters are forgiven for simliar lapses of judgement. But those characters also provide something positive to the show. Give me anything positive Laurel ever added to the show. Anything!

Well we saw that she worked at a law firm that helped the less fortunate. That shows that Oliver isn't the only one who cares about justice in Star City. She got Thea a job at CNRI and once took in a boy whose parents were killed by a man Laurel was bringing a suit against. Her relationship with Tommy also contributed to him being a better and more responsible person.

As Julep and I have both argued Laurel is not the only character to have others die for her character development. And I'd argue some of those are just as pointless. We have yet to find out why HIVE killed Diggle's brother, a simple security guard. And the less said about Shado's death the better. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they found a way to tie Sara's death to Thea's development just as they did with Roy's by unlocking the memories of him killing a cop.

Edit post: Yes she whines at Oliver and Sara but that's because those characters, regardless of how much they've suffered, are tied to how much grief SHE'S gone through. They got punished for their own mistakes, whereas with Laurel most of her suffering is a result of other's mistakes/machinations.

edited 2nd Feb '15 6:22:20 AM by windleopard

That sounds a bit like appeal to worse problems. "Look this char has issues too."

Edit:So basically "Well your 5 years of hell are punishment for cheating on me, but how dare you make my life difficult by returning from the dead!?" *added hyperbole*

edited 2nd Feb '15 6:28:16 AM by 3of4