The Active Denial System

The ADS is a supposedly non-lethal weapon meant to disperse violent crowds and enemies without permanent injury by using waves similar to microwave ovens (only with lower frequencies) to heat the top layers of the skin, causing instant pain similar to feeling like one is on fire. It was going to be put in service in Afghanistan but was recalled before being put into practice. In addition, Russia is also making their own ADS and a stripped down model called the Silent Guardian is at the moment being installed in the ceilings of the LA County jail. The big question is is there any way this device can be misused or abused?

edited 10th Sep '12 6:06:42 PM by BestOf

Only way I can think of is if the limiters are somehow removed/disabled. I mean, I don't know what ethics panels say about using weaponized microwaves against humans.

edited 10th Sep '12 6:10:58 PM by RocketDude

I guess we'll find out in LA County first.

I think it's a good idea. I mean I guess we could go and tell a crowd "Hey, do you guys want rubber bullets or microwaves? Pick one." But if they were that level of rational to where they could be bargained with, then we wouldn't be pointing shotguns loaded with beanbags and plastic pellets at them.

I'm guessing they've checked to make sure it doesn't actually damage the upper layer of skin. I mean, I'm sure they have, but still - if it's causing pain, it's probably able to cause damage. That's what pain nerves are for, isn't it?

Also, is it a little concerning that in the video, they demonstrated it on a bunch of people pretending to be anti-war protesters? Not even particularly violent-looking ones.

I guess apart from these concerns it seems like a good idea to me.

edited 10th Sep '12 6:31:01 PM by LoniJay

^^I guess the difference is this: what's harder to avoid, a microwave field or beanbags full of pellets?

edited 10th Sep '12 6:27:50 PM by RocketDude

Whatever gets the job done I guess. It isn't hard to hit someone with the pellets. I was re-qualifying with those on Wednesday actually.

The difference is, you can't accidentally hit someone in the temple with microwaves at a minimum distance and kill them.

edited 10th Sep '12 6:35:15 PM by Barkey

Good point.

Just fry their pacemaker.

But as for being misused, of course it will be misused. Sooner or later the non-lethal nature of it will lead to it's being used more and more often, against less and less violent protesters. Suppressing dissent is not always a unalloyed good thing.

I'm no expert on pain, but isn't being on fire more painful than being shot?

Also, there was another discussion about this, that when you use this on people, particularly crowds, they can't escape. I know rubber bullets can cause confusion but those seem to be coming from a direction that you can flee from and try not to get trampled. Lots and lots of people suddenly on fire, not so much.

It doesn't actually set you on fire. It makes it feel as if you were. And I think the big honkin' dish makes it quite obvious where it's coming from.

Still, it's a nice gift to oppressive regimes.

You know what I mean. The sudden pain of being on fire, regardless of if you're actually on fire or not, is very disorienting and might not actually get people to disperse.

Depending on the size of these things, the likelihood of innocent bystanders getting mixed up with these things is enormous.

I'm guessing anything that can cause pain can cause damage, so the obvious misuse is that it'll kill someone. If it somehow doesn't cause damage then the obvious misuse is when it indirectly kills someone e.g. from the very panicked crowds trampling someone to death or the fear actually killing them. And the clever misuses haven't even been thought of yet.

I have to wonder what happens if the pain makes you collapse on the ground and all you can do is writhe in agony.

To be honest, I really dislike any device that is portrayed as "non-lethal weapons". No exceptions.

Anything that is seen as "entirely harmless" will accidentally kill somebody just purely because people keep on using it carelessly, without considering that there is always a chance that it can become lethal.

edited 10th Sep '12 11:26:29 PM by IraTheSquire

This is what I meant.

Like I'm pretty sure that's considered torture, but then again, it's not like we care about that anymore...

And it's also pretty disturbing how willing government officials are to do things to that top layer of skin and call it harmless when that's the same layer of skin that just going outside can give it cancer.

edited 11th Sep '12 6:02:45 AM by ohsointocats

Would you then consider all forms of riot suppression torture, since they all inflict pain in varying amounts?

I think its only torture if people cant get away. But it doesn't have to be that bad to be misused. Really, the technology involved is less important than the legal restrictions, if any, on it's use.

Odds are it's like a taser, extremely uncomfortable, but as soon as that input is stopped, you're back to normal and can get up.

Being tased sucks(been tased lots) but as soon as that current is stopped, you aren't in pain, and you can get right up. If you guys would watch some of the videos of the ADS, it's shown that people don't fall down and writhe in agony, they run away. Tasers make you fall on the ground because they lock up your muscle groups, a burning sensation enables you to(and encourages you to) run away.

I've just sort of lost sympathy to objections about less than lethal and police tactics on this forum. Anything that's effective is met with all sorts of outrage and criticism, and when asked what authorities should do, they purposely suggest ineffective measures that won't get the job done, because odds are they don't want the crowd to be dispersed.

Well, the OP specifically asked about misuse. And that's the primary form of misuse- crowds that should not be dispersed. The actual technology involved (lethal or not) is secondary.

It's a weapon—a theoretically non-lethal weapon, but a weapon. So I'd be shocked if it couldn't be misused or abused: God knows, virtually every other weapon on earth can be. And as with most other (non-mass destruction) weapons, it's not clear that worst-case scenarios are useful for deciding whether the ADS's existence is some sort of inherent problem.

Sounds like Odin's gift to torturers, for a start. Intense pain that leaves no physical trace afterwards? Yummy.

There's already a plethora of pain-delivery methods that leave no mark—a squeeze to the right pressure point can ruin a suspect's entire day, no expensive technology needed. The ADS makes most sense as a crowd-control method ... and frankly, the authorities already have beanbag guns, tear gas, high-speed rubber pellets, and good old-fashioned fire hoses in their arsenals, so I'm not sure this heralds some new Dark Age of crowd suppression.

^

If anything, as far as we know right now, there is a way lower risk of accidentally killing someone with ADS than other methods. As I mentioned, a rubber pellet/fin stabilized/beanbag shotgun round can hit someone in the temple or eye and cause injury or death.

"as far as we know right now, there is a way lower risk of accidentally killing someone with ADS than other methods."

It's the as far as we know bit. It could have unwanted side effects on certain people/medical issues.

EDIT: decided to check through the wiki page for a refresher

" Most human test subjects reached their pain threshold within 3 seconds, and none could endure more than 5 seconds"

Now give it to scared-as-all-hell weekend cops with an angry mob in front of them. I'm guessing a lot of people will be getting more then 5 seconds of exposure.

"Anyone incapable of leaving the target area (eg, physically handicapped, infants, incapacitated, trapped, etc) would continue to receive radiation until the operator turned off the beam. "

Depending on how wide the beam is this could easily happen without even wanting to point it at a single person.

This just seems like A Bad Idea.

edited 11th Sep '12 9:58:50 AM by thatguythere47

What does it do to metal and/or electronics?

(I imagine people know what happens if you put a fork in the microwave.)