Singular 'They' and Its Usage

So here is a thread I suppose about the discussion of using "they" as a singular pronoun.

For those new to this hubbub: speaking English, you probably understand a small problem with English, namely a lack of a third-person pronoun that is gender-neutral. This can be an issue sometimes, and because of that people have suggested a number of solutions. These include using 'he' as the gender-neutral pronoun, saying s/he or he/she, making up a new one, and of course the singular 'they'.

With that out of the way, thoughts/comments?

ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖅ ᐊᑕᐅᓯᖅ ᓈᒻᒪᔪᐃᑦᑐᖅ

By saying "singular they", do you mean one can say of someone of unknown gender^note And unlike what deathpigeon says, asking someone for their gender before posting is not a viable option when there are ten time zones of difference and other people post ten pages inbetween "they is ___" instead of "s/he is ___"?

Or does one have to use plural verb forms as well?

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:08:00 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

I assume you would need to use the plural verb as well. You do use "are" for singular "you" instead of "art", after all.

@medinoc, was that post meant to be serious or a joke? Like Heatth, I think you'd use "they are", just referring to one person.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:10:53 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien

I expected the answer, but as a non-native speaker, I wanted to be absolutely, positively 100% sure before the thread went on further.

Didn't think of that. This despite how often I lament the lack of distinct singular and plural forms for second person in English.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:13:46 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

This is why I want thou to make a come back...

@Medinoc: Technically I'm a non-native speaker of English too, but my Chinese is awful and I've grown up speaking English (and I know a little French from the time I took French as a foreign language in school) Thanks for the explanation. That's why, even though I don't really mind "he" and prefer to use singular "they," I sometimes wish there were distinct third-person singular and plural forms in English.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:40:55 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien

[further commentary on 2nd person self-thumped for off-topicness]

This is complicated in French by the fact our "they" is gendered, and our adjectives take their subject's gender too; and our grammar rules explicitly state that if there are both genders present, regardless of numbers, it's the male form that must be used.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:37:49 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

My opinion about the singular they is the following.

Its been in nigh on continuous use for 700+. People who keep trying to insist on making up alternate, gender neutral pronouns like 'xe' need to have every work that uses the singular they collected, starting with Chaucer, and have it dropped on their heads. We then follow on to those who claim that 'he' is the gender neutral from and work our way up to those idiots in the 1800s who first came up with this idea by trying to make English confirm to the rules of Latin grammar.

I don't know why but this is one of those subjects where my opinion is held with ferocity far beyond what is reasonable and rational.

As you might've noticed, I'm one of the people who use "they." I asked one of my professors (I'm majoring in English) about it and he said that "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun has become so common in the last couple of decades that it is accepted and well on the way to becoming the default.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

@Best Of: I use 'they" too.

The road goes ever on. -Tolkien

I completely accept seeing "they" and "their" as singular in text, as long as "s/he" and "hir" are accepted too. And I'll keep personally using the latter, because I think they're make it easier to immediately understand who you're talking about.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

Personally, I accept that the singular they is perfectly grammatically correct, I just feel it shouldn't be. The singular they is a confusing, imprecise, inaccurate, and unnecessary indefinite pronoun. It's job can be achieved with greater accuracy and precision, and less confusion, by "he/she" or "he or she" or any derivative of them. They take a bit of getting used to, but they are much better than the singular they.

I tend to use 'they' just because it is the one that sounds more natural spoken. S/he don't "sound" anything, not even as an abbreviation so I find it weird.

Then again, I sometimes slip to 'he' almost as often. Much like French*

we assign genders to everything and the male form for is the default when dealing with people, so it feel more natural to me.

I prefer to not use they as I can't not think it as singular. My mind simply doesn't comprehend that

True, "they" is the only "usable" form in spoken English (fortunately spoken English, even over radio/phone allows for some nonverbal cues to compensate). "S/he" is only appropriate for written text.

edited 22nd Aug '12 1:59:27 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

..."S/he" isn't the only alternative. There's also "he/she" which is pronounced "he she", and then there's always "he or she". Both of those work fine.

And both sound necessarily long and distracting from the main message. I don't like them either.

"They" works better if you think of it as referring to a group of one. This is useful as it also covers multiple people pretending to be the same person (sharing an online username, for example) and people with multiple personalities, which are not all necessarily the same gender.

edited 22nd Aug '12 2:03:18 AM by Elfive

And the singular they creates unnecessary ambiguity, which distracts from the main message just as much, if not more. In addition, it has many other flaws, such as the imprecision and inaccuracy inherent in it. He/she, on the other hand, has only the problem of being slightly longer than the singular they (it's only one more syllable and 2 more characters). That is, in itself, a minor problem, especially when compared to the problems that infect the singular they.

Case by case. If the ambiguity is a problem, I just go by 'he' and that is it. Everytime I hear someone say "he/she" or "he or she" they make a pause, drawing attention to it, as if they want to be make clear they are being gender sensitive. I find this annoying and unnecessary.

I thought ambiguity was the whole point. If you are using he/she/it/xe/hir you are effectively saying that you don't know what gender the person/thing you are referring to is, and that if it doesn't really matter whether they are a man, woman, robot or uplifted hamster.

They*

mean the ambiguity between singular and plural. But really English menages to go by without singular you. I find it troublesome myself, since my language has a word for such*

we actually don't use the proper word where I live, but that is beside the mater

, but for an English speaker it shouldn't be that weird. Context is all you need sometimes.

edited 22nd Aug '12 2:21:08 AM by Heatth

But ambiguity is hardly the only problem. There is the problem of inaccuracy, as we are giving something a meaning that is completely incompatible with it's primary meaning (it would be like if the word for life also meant murder). There is the problem of imprecision, as we are just adding more meanings to a word that is already ambiguous by nature, as all pronouns are. None of those problems are present in "he/she" or "he or she".

In addition, your problem with speaking "he/she" and "he or she" can be easily fixed by not pausing after saying them, which is quite simple. I do it all the damn time, and I never add an extra pause on the end. You could do the same.

Ok, in this post you are demonstrating the problems with the singular they as, if you hadn't added the hottip, I would've had no clue that you were referring to a single person, and not to all of the people arguing against the singular they.

Also, I feel like the English language suffers for not having a distinction between the second person plural and second person singular, which is why I'm in favor of "thou" making a comeback.

Finally, while context may be all one needs, at times, it often isn't.

*Pigeon and me.

edited 22nd Aug '12 2:27:09 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."