Pussy Riot and Russia.

I'm actually pleased about this and I don't really get the protests to the arrest. Is the two-year imprisonment considered too harsh a punishment for this?

I'm surprised more people aren't criticising their actions, actually.

OK, why?

What's precedent ever done for us?

The women were charged and convicted on counts of blasphemy. Got two years for it. If I had the misfortune to live under Russian laws, I would never see daylight again unless it was through prison bars. In most Islamic states, I would be dead.

For me, this is a red-line issue. Blasphemy laws have no place in a civilized country. None. Especially any such laws that lead to a prison sentence. I will never be convinced otherwise.

I just realized that I left out an important fact, the reason they only got 2 years was because Putin promised the members of Pussy Riot a "soft" sentence.

Putin does make a legitimate point here though, when asked about the case, Putin said that the stunt "was no good" and would have entailed a much tougher punishment for its participants if they had performed it at a holy site in Israel or even death if they had done it at some Muslim site in Russia's North Caucasus region.

edited 19th Aug '12 9:28:01 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

@Cassie - sorry, the 'you' I referred to was actually a general 'you' meant for every Troper present. As in anyone in any country would find it suspicious if one of their religious leaders called the reign of their political leader a 'miracle of god' then criticise his opponents, like Patriarch Kirill did to Putin

Is that the Appeal to Worse Problems fallacy Putin's throwing out there? Pity he didn't follow on by saying that in many _other_ countries the girls would have received lighter sentences, because the presidents in those places don't attack critics.

Ninja'd while I was editing this post :)

edited 19th Aug '12 9:35:11 AM by betaalpha

Isn't that just an Appeal to Worse Problems, though? I mean, if, say, Saudi Arabia will give you the death sentence for having sex with someone of your own gender, does that make it moral for your country to cut your hands off instead?

edited 19th Aug '12 9:35:24 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

...

Edited by fanty on Sep 28th 2019 at 2:54:02 PM

This all sounds very like a Russian Amanda Palmer, except the latter is more likely to end up with a night in a police cell and a fine after a stunt.

edited 19th Aug '12 11:57:30 AM by Michael

Well I'll step in and say that being found guilty would still be expected if Russia were a democracy but 2-years is way too much. For screwing with a Catholic church, you'd get a gigantic fine even in places like France, or if you messed with the Church of England in Britain, you'd also get a huge fine.

But 2-years imprisonment is obviously political.

@ Cassie: I'm not even sure what your point is, and it sounds an awful lot like you're in support of the Russian government putting out stiff political sentences like this. And really this is just one sign of it in a broader set of actions by the government. If that's not what you're saying, then you're phrasing it really badly.

Not to say that it's a surprise that they got arrested, though. Seems like a lot of protest groups go in with the intention to get arrested because that's the kind of thing they want to get out on the news. In which case the authorities are kind of shooting themselves in the foot, as it gets the attention of human rights groups.

Which is also a lie. And as already said, irrelevant either way; Other countries doing it too is not an explanation of why it should be done.

edited 19th Aug '12 2:22:39 PM by ManInGray

Here's why I think it should be done: You may think 2 years is harsh. You may think they shouldn't get arrested. But thinking so will let them set a successful precedence of future 'church' performances, future imitations and future disregard of authority AND religion that way.

I think stewing in jail for 2 years for lack of 'conduct' in church is just as soft as participating in The Biggest Loser

edited 19th Aug '12 2:55:20 PM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

And heaven forbid we set a precedent where church authority is allowed to be criticized!

edited 19th Aug '12 3:12:46 PM by Ever9

Criticising authority AND religion?

Can't be having dissent, no sir. HANG THE BASTARDS!

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

Given the protests that have already happenned in response, this seems to be fanning the flames more than deterring.

Chainsaws have been involved.

edited 19th Aug '12 3:17:47 PM by Michael

@Cassie: If you believe that then I don't think you understand how unpleasant being stuck in prison is. Having no independence or privacy at any time, very little control, bullying that you cannot escape from, the daily possibility of assault, separation from their family and children and so on. And that's a prison in the US or UK. I have no idea what class of prison the women will end up in, but it could be very nasty indeed.

Such is the sacrifice they have made because they don't want their country to fall back into full dictatorship.

edited 19th Aug '12 3:21:57 PM by betaalpha

Yeah, chainsawing a Ukrainian christian memorial to the victims of Stalin.

edited 19th Aug '12 3:23:45 PM by stripesthezebra

A prison colony, bet'. Siberian winters, ho!

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

Authority should always be questioned and challenged, especially when it is unjust, and religion should have no special place in that regard.

So sure, a fine as if they had been disruptive at any old place. Not two years in prison. That just shows that Putin needs to be challenged more.

First off, they didn't destroy any property, so a fine would have been more appropriate. A few days in jail, which a lot of people get when they disturb the peace like that, but then they get let off.

Also, I am distressed by the thought that authority should never be challenged, because sometimes authority does the wrong thing. And Putin is generally regarded as extremely authoritarian and damaging to whatever democracy Russia has.

Do you think everyone who challenges an authority they think is wrong should be arrested?

That kind of question is cultural. It thus may not be easily answered, or answered in the way you like.

Just sayin'.

"Yeah, chainsawing a Ukrainian christian memorial to the victims of Stalin."

No, some people thought it was a cross erected to commemorate victims of Stalinist repression and the famine of the 1930s, however that the cross is made of stone not wood, and the wooden cross which was destroyed is likely to have been the cross dedicated to the events of the Orange Revolution of 2004–2005.

edited 19th Aug '12 5:18:20 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

Looking a little into it, I have the following to say: While Putin is a dictator and I have no sympathy for him, Pussy Riot's action was an unjustified attack on freedom of religion. Their cause might be good, their methods in this case were not. I have no sympathy for them.

Pour y voir clair, il suffit souvent de changer la direction de son regard www.xkcd.com/386/

Sorry, who did they prevent from practicing their religion?

It would have been an attack on religious freedom if they had damaged the church or prevented worshippers from going in at gunpoint. otherwise this is about as much an attack on religious freedom as a sign on a bus that says "atheism isnt evil"

Pardon me, but weren't they inside the church, having broken into it?

Signs on a bus saying 'athiesm isn't evil' is one thing, but this is breaking into a place of worship in order to disrespect it. Not the same thing at all.

I agree that two years is a bit harsh, but you can't say that they're little saints who never harmed anybody.

edited 19th Aug '12 6:49:42 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...