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Anorexic suicidal woman to be force fed:

Euo will do!
Sometimes, legislature needs a prod. <shrugs> I wish somebody would prod Parliament into sorting our horrible mess of regulations out. As in, soon, rather than "when we get around to it". tongue

Guidelines can be helpful things.

edited 19th Jun '12 7:27:51 PM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 102 joeyjojo, Tue, 19th Jun '12 7:37:35 PM from The Magic Land Of Oz Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
Storm the bastille!
Still while I don't really disagree with her sentiment I think she is overstepping her place to make such a decision.

All well it's not really important, it's not like the next judge can't just over rule her when he has got a point to prove.

edited 19th Jun '12 7:38:18 PM by joeyjojo

Mn Hovercraft st plen de nguills

The judiciary is an important part of the lawmaking process as well. It seems like the accusion of judicial activism gets thrown out whenever a judge makes a decision that ruffles a few feathers.

 104 joeyjojo, Tue, 19th Jun '12 8:32:11 PM from The Magic Land Of Oz Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
Storm the bastille!
If the right die was in the Canadian Constitution I would agree with you, but the fact of the matter is that is not.

Mn Hovercraft st plen de nguills

It may not have a provision explicitly stating that, but it's also the job of the judiciary to interpret the intent of the people who drafted the Constitution, and not just the literal words. I'm not familiar enough with the Canadian Constitution to have an informed opinion on whether or not that's the case, though.

 106 Vericrat, Thu, 21st Jun '12 1:33:10 AM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
There are few times where I think the law should be capable of deciding what is done with my body. But if I'm in the grip of a mental condition that makes me want to do something that in my right mind (i.e. without that condition) I would not want to do to my body (e.g. killing myself), and it is a recoverable/treatable condition, then I don't have a problem granting the law that right.

A thorough investigation should occur before the government should be allowed to make that choice, but in the case of a wish to kill oneself when one is suffering from a condition that is recoverable, such an investigation should be conducted, as this is a rather permanent decision.

Knowing only what I know now, I would say that the judge made the right call, assuming there aren't some facts I'm not aware of.
THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
 107 Ramidel, Thu, 21st Jun '12 3:01:57 AM Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Philosophically speaking, I can't agree that it's inherently irrational to choose to die. If it's a choice, then it's a value judgment; "I do not choose to continue living, because I derive more pain from life than I do pleasure." (Nihilism is not irrational, though it's rather unproductive.) If you believe in human free will, then you have to accept that as a choice, which means that it's probably inconsistent to treat it as a mental health issue; either it should be a crime (whether for public policy reasons or moralistic ones) or permitted. Personally, I'd be for the latter.

Of course, the fact is that humans don't have "free will" as such, and someone's value judgments can change from moment to moment on the basis of hormonal swings. So I think there's a valid public policy reason to restrain an individual from suicide temporarily on mental health grounds. A sustained desire for death, however, should probably be either respected or criminalized unless you want to go for a revolutionary (or at least radically utilitarian) moral philosophy. In the case of this woman, that probably means letting her starve.

@Aondeug (#99): Yeah, I guess I was sounding condescending. I'll try again:

Theres nothing wrong with becoming a therapist, and theres nothing wrong with wanting to help people. Theres also nothing inherently wrong with doing it because it makes yourself feel good.

However, theres a point where you have to respect that other people have other ideas of what is good for them, what they really want, and which kind of help they need. Thinking to know better what someone else really needs is a dangerous terrain; people often go wrong in that respect because most people dont realize how different people and their lives are.

Guess what I wanted to say is this: If youre religious, and youre a therapist, you should not view therapy as a sacred mission, nor as a way of proselytizing. I dont know if you are or ever were in danger to make that mistake, but that was the thought that was on my mind.
It's perfectly possible to admire building a cannon to destroy the moon, whilst lamenting the act of destruction.
 109 0dd 1, Fri, 22nd Jun '12 4:17:32 PM from Nowhere Land
Just awesome like that
If youre religious, and youre a therapist, you should not view therapy as a sacred mission, nor as a way of proselytizing.
You're kind of not supposed to do this anyway if you're a therapist, since that's not what a therapist's job is. One must set aside his or her biases and beliefs and attempt to understand the thought process of the person they're dealing with from that person's point of view, and that includes understanding their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

edited 22nd Jun '12 4:17:56 PM by 0dd1

Insert witty and clever quip here.

My page, as the database hates my handle.

My music.
 110 Aondeug, Fri, 22nd Jun '12 4:22:12 PM from  Our Dreams
Oh My
I already responded to him via a PM that yes I know that and don't intend to do that.

So please drop this line of conversation immediately.
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
 111 0dd 1, Fri, 22nd Jun '12 9:14:41 PM from Nowhere Land
Just awesome like that
Oh, I was just talking generally. I didn't even notice you mentioned that.
Insert witty and clever quip here.

My page, as the database hates my handle.

My music.
 112 Aondeug, Fri, 22nd Jun '12 9:31:45 PM from  Our Dreams
Oh My
's okay. I just want the derail to end. I should have moved to P Ms a long time ago...

BUT YES. ANOREXIC WOMAN.
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
 113 Gabrael, Wed, 27th Jun '12 8:29:00 AM Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
A Polar Bear Named Gabrael
Thread Hop:

Feeding tubes are a bitch to maintain. They have to be constantly checked due to complications and chance of infection...ugg.

If she wants to die let her die. Just because someone has a chance to be cured doesn't mean they care or want to be. If I had cancer, I would probably refuse chemo because of what that does to people. I prefer quality over quantity.

Her family supports her decision. She's not abandoning any children or asking for government aid to help her die.

Just let her die. It's her choice.
 114 Rhyme Beat, Wed, 27th Jun '12 8:47:23 AM from Eastern Standard Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Who?
When the "treatment" to something is eating things than there's no reason to refuse treatment other than the anorexia. As many others on this thread said, starvation actually makes the food problems worse by supressing hunger, meaning her body and mind are both tricking her into thinking she doesn't need food. Anorexia can be dealt with with therapy.
[up] Well, that woman was apparently aware she would die without food, so she definitely wasn't "tricked by her body and mind" into thinking she didn't need food.
It's perfectly possible to admire building a cannon to destroy the moon, whilst lamenting the act of destruction.
 116 Gabrael, Wed, 27th Jun '12 11:21:21 AM Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
A Polar Bear Named Gabrael
She could have the best therapists, treatment plans, and support systems in the world, but if she really wants to die nothing will matter.

I can only imagine the resentment and determination that can come from being forced bodily to deny your own wish.

Again, it's not like she is under house arrest only, under forced supervision, or mandatory counselling. They are force feeding her...

There are bounds of reason when it comes to helping your fellow man. To me, forcing this woman to stay alive in such a physically compelling manner is beyond that reason.

If you want her to live, inspire her to live. Give her a puropose or a task. Don't force feed her like a an animal. How much respect and dignity does that show?

Regardless of you and your family's wishes, we the state are going to traumatize you and deny you your wishes because we are confident you will thank us later. Then when you are all better, you can be a happy, little citizen again and we can pay attention to other things more important than you.

Makes me really uncomfortable.

edited 27th Jun '12 11:22:12 AM by Gabrael

Euo will do!
That may well be the case. However, to not attempt intervention and then allow therapy with both her and the family (there may be more going on with that acceptance of theirs than we know: call me a cynic, but that's a fair few red flags waving in my head) we'd deny the opportunity of a future her to come to terms with what occurred.

But, if she truly wishes suicide upon having been treated, that is always an option open to her. Well, as long as she doesn't ask for medically sponsored assisted suicide, but works out how to go about if effectively. From the sound of it, she'll have help from family, which the government would likely ignore. As long as no pressure by them is in effect.

edited 27th Jun '12 11:29:47 AM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 118 Gabrael, Wed, 27th Jun '12 11:57:16 AM Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
A Polar Bear Named Gabrael
How can suicide still be an option if her preferred method is taken away from her. If she does have a feeding tube inserted, it will have to be monitered, so it's not like she can be alone to try something else.

She isn't given free will to choose. She is being forced when there is really no reason for her to. By all means if you want to talk someone off a ledge, do so. But if they decide to jump stay out of their way.

I find it ironic the legal system will jump in on a case of a woman who is choosing a very unconventional, but a very spiritual method of death. But reform and rehab drug offenders? Hells no.

We (as society) have our priorities messed up. Let her do as she wishes. It's not worth violating someone's body over what we think her solution should be.
Euo will do!
Well, the problem in this case is her wishes impact on the staff. She is asking them to violate the law as it stands by withholding treatment for a condition that can be managed and palliated without resorting to death. Ergo, it is not just her concern, as she has been hospitalised.

Now, if she planned to shut herself in a house for a few weeks, stocked up on various comforts and necessities to make the starvation more comfortable for herself, told her family to leave her alone and got on with it, it'd be a wholly different story. As it is, she's not in that situation at all.

edited 27th Jun '12 12:02:49 PM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 120 Gabrael, Wed, 27th Jun '12 1:35:35 PM Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
A Polar Bear Named Gabrael
So, let her go. Let her go home and die. It's not that hard.

It may sound like I am oversimplifing things, but in this case I don't see why it can't be that simple. It should have never gotten this big to begin with.

Maybe she'll get lucky and change her mind. Maybe she'll get another kind of lucky and decide to hang herself with a power cord. Until then we have another case of a state sanctioned pet mouse.

I wonder who's paying all her medical bills.
Euo will do!
She's a Brit: it's on the NHS, and the NHS is doing its charter by her, whether she likes it or not. <shrugs> So, the taxpayers are stumping up for this one. Including her and her family. Oh, and me.

To be honest, I think she must have been sectioned by the very same family who now supposedly support her decision to die (not any old Tom, Dick or Harry can have you treated against your will: somebody has to sign on the dotted line at the very start, and that means "relative"). They should have just shut up and let her get on with it if they were serious about that "supporting her choice" thing, instead of running to social services and/or the local hospital.

edited 27th Jun '12 4:37:38 PM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
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Total posts: 121
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