T Here are plenty of other tropes for non-decay changes in adaptations. See Adaptation Distillation and Pragmatic Distillation, for instance. In fact, look at the Derivative Works index. I'm not clear on what you think needs to be split off.
My point is, there are no tropes for decay version of adaption.
The name adaption decay says one thing, the name describing a concept that could really be used, but the actual troop is better off being called adaption morph. And then "Adaption decay" name can be used for the trope I described in OP, which you apparently missed altogether somehow. A trope I do not currently see, and I looked through the Derivatives works list.(passing over names that obviously didn't apply of course)
Here is how I would lay it out. Note: The first three are this way already, just included for comparison and to point out they don't cover this. Note: Adaption morph is currently called Adaption decay, I wish to change its name and use the name Adaption decay to mean something else.
Adaption Dissolution: The stories details are reduced in the adaption.
Adaption Expansion: The stories details are increased in adaption.
Adaptation Induced Plot Hole: Where there are inconsistencies in the plots due to Adaption morph.
Adaption Morph: The story changes in a notable way from its original source other then reduction or increase of detail, so the story can end up being notably alien when compared to the original.
Adaption Decay: This is where the story notably suffers because of incompatibilities between Adaption morphs and the Original works. This is usually caused when some network etc. editor makes changes here and there for various reasons, but leaves other parts of the original concepts alone, failing to look at the story as a whole. Or changes to a central aspect of the story are so great, only a rewrite from the ground up would make it work well, but they don't do that of course.
While it is a product of both Adaption morph and often Adaption induced Plot Holes, it differs from both of them on how it has a very destructive effect on the story, and that further adaptions or sequals often expand these cracks and destruction of story (especially when the next adaption is required to honor both the original works and the new adaption, which can often be the case)
I credit this kind of Adaption decay to why some latter sequels to successful movies based on adaptions, tend to not be as good IMO.
edited 16th Jun '12 6:51:03 PM by truepurple
Your definition of Adaptation Decay seems to be one of the main causes of Adaptation Decay as it is currently conceived. It might be worth spinning off into its own subcategory like Adaptation-Induced Plot Hole, since it's essentially the same thing, only a thematic hole. I don't see why we should replace Adaptation Decay as it stands, or why your conception should be the only thing that's considered decay.
We shouldn't have a page that's just Adaptation And Done Badly. We used to - under Adaptation Decay. It proved so valueless that we made the page in-universe. Examples of decay should instead go under a more specific trope.
Wow, I read and reread those lasts two posts, and I struggle to understand most of what you two say in those last two posts. I think you both struggle to understand me too, even if you don't know it.
Using my definitions, your saying Adaption decay is the main cause of Adaption morph. But this makes no sense at all and suggests a fundamental misunderstanding with my suggestion. As I said, Adaption decay can be caused in part by Adaption morph. But to say Adaption morph, aka changes in the type of story told, could be causes by structural problems resulting from incompatibility between changes in a story and its original, is like saying a vase fell because it developed a crack, rather then cracked because it fell. In other words, there is a major logic fallacy in what you are saying here, probably because you are misunderstanding me somehow.
First of all, there is no trope that covers what I termed "Adaption decay". So if you don't like the name, we might develop another to cover the concept, but I see no point, the name fits the concept (using my terms, not current)
Secondly, please examine the meaning of the word decay, it is synonymous with the word deterioration. But not all Adaption morph/aka change to story from original is deterioration. The changes brought on by the adaption may indeed be a improvement, so the term "decay" to mean Adaption morph seems a bad use of terminology.
But concepts of improvement or worsening are highly subjective. Structural defects/incompatibilities between original story and changes is not nearly as subjective a concept and is what my concept of "Adaption decay" is.
My concept trope of Adaption decay, yes would be all examples of Adaption done badly, but the reverse is not true, not all adaptions done badly would be covered by this trope. It would need to be because of the incompatibilities I previously mentioned.
How are you using the term "value" here? What are you measuring/what are you measuring against to determine the value of X trope?
Please explain "in-universe"
Well, first of all, we would need a entry for decay, before we could get more specific. As I said, I don't see how one could call any change to a story "decay". And if you think any change to a story from original can be termed "decay", then that would make both Adaption Dissolution and Adaption Expansion examples of said "decay", but both have their own entries.
Secondly, what do you mean, "going under specific trope". Would you please give me a working example of this using this subject matter?
edited 17th Jun '12 2:42:13 AM by truepurple
Adaptation decay is a list of tropes about how works drift away from the original through successive adaptations. It's often bad, but not necessarily so. You seem to want to make Adaptation Decay one specific way works decay (and not even the only bad way). This is like taking a trope called car crash and saying that it should only be used for single-vehicle accidents involving utility poles and everything else should be under Car Fubar, an awkwardly-phrased term that you made up. Also, the definition you want seems to be straight complaining, which is not a good basis for a trope.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/In-Universe
You may want to read up on the wiki standards as well.
Ace, that page doesn't tell me what Routerie meant by "we made the page in-universe" (sorry about previous use of quotation marks being misleading or something)
edited 17th Jun '12 2:04:22 PM by truepurple
Adaptation Decay is "in-universe" because it only lists examples of fictional adaptation decay within stories. So, if a movie poorly adapts an Agatha Christie novel, we don't list that as an example. But if a the novel Mrs Mc Gintys Dead talks about a character's novel being poorly adapted to film, we mention that. We do this because "adaptation that is bad" is too broad and subjective a definition to be of any use.
But it works as an index for specific tropes. For example, the movie of The Witches changed the book's ending. If I mentioned that fact under Adaptation Decay, I would just be saying They Changed It, Now It Sucks! without identifying any trope.
Instead, we note the change under Disneyfication. Disneyfication is our name for bowdlerizing works, tacking on happy endings and removing grim elements. It is a trope more specific than just "adapting badly" - in fact, it needn't be bad at all.
edited 17th Jun '12 1:51:43 PM by Routerie
Routerie, what do you mean, "going under specific trope". Would you please give me a working example of this using this subject matter?
The Witches going under Disneyfication would be "going under a specific trope" rather than just calling it "Adaptation Decay".
Routerie, so by "going under" you mean listed under, even though both have their own listings? I still don't understand you. Please apply what you are talking about to the subject matter using my suggested change of trope, contrasting the alternative.
It is kind of funny how both of you seem to be arguing against what I am suggesting, but doing so for completely polar reasons. Routerie, saying my suggested trope is too broad (but inaccurately describes my suggested trope, so might not know what I am suggesting anyway) and Ace for my trope being too specific. I don't think either is correct.
I am not suggesting a trope that covers all adaptions gone wrong, it is not that general. Nor am I suggestion a trope that is significantly more specific then the existing tropes of Disneyfication, Adaption Dissolution, or Adaption Expansion IMO
edited 17th Jun '12 4:54:47 PM by truepurple
But you are suggesting taking the Adaptation Decay namespace and making it into something significantly more specific than it is now. Why get rid of a page for a general concept? You wnat to take a page for a general concept, make it specific and leave it with a general name. The trope you want may be valid (though it sounds like it may be Adaptation Distillation done badly). I suggest leave Adaptation Decay as is and take this to YKTTW and make your trope under a new title. Before that, though, I would recommend learning more about how the wiki works before you try to change it.
I didn't see anything on that wiki standards webpage that could help me learn the wiki as it goes to this issue, is reading the wiki standards page what you meant by "learning more about how the wiki works"?
Again, I suggest changing the name to "Adaption morph" (along with a few mild changes) and using the old name "Adaption decay" for something new. I never said to get ride of any pages. Yes Adaption morph is broader, but it is one of the broadest of all the tropes in this area, so that is to be expected.
It also may be worth considering to have a troop for all Adaption change, and one where the essence changes so it is almost another genre or other significant changes to the essence of a story. Not sure about naming here though. Maybe "Adaption change" and "Adaption morph"?
I could also see some restructuring in this area for better organization. Adaption Dissolution, Adaption Expansion and all the rest, could list under one parent category/trope of Adaption change or Adaption morph, and that parent trope/category could list under Derivative Works (but not any of Adaption change/morphs subs)
edited 17th Jun '12 7:03:11 PM by truepurple
Why do you want to rename Adaptation Decay and give its name to your new trope? Why should the name "adaptation decay" go to anything more specific than "a story decays through adaptation"? Why should the concept of "a story decays through adaptation" get a name less clear than "adaptation decay"?
If you have a new trope about a specific type of adaptation decay, suggest it here.
edited 17th Jun '12 10:11:42 PM by Routerie
There's also the problem that morph isn't exactly a word and this isn't quite how it's used when it's treated as one.
You guys keep showing me how your not paying attention to the words I spend time and energy crafting, and it is really starting to anger me. I shouldn't have to repeat myself a bunch of times before you even realize I am saying something.
Look up the word decay. It means "decomposed; rot" "to decline in excellence" etc. Since the current page named "Adaption decay" is talking about any change, and not just changes that are destructive, this name does not fit at all.
How old are you, or how few years has it been since you have learned fluent english, that you don't know "morph" is a word, and that is how you use it. If you doubt me, look it up on dictionary.com "to be transformed" There are few words more apropos then morph for this purpose, though there are a number of synonyms of morph that tie more or less, with being as fitting for the purpose (like change, transformation, etc) but I think morph works the best.
edited 18th Jun '12 2:15:41 AM by truepurple
Don't get angry. The people in this thread have shown you more patience than is necessary or even rational.
, at least not in the way that you suggest. (Incidentally, "adaption" and "adoption" are also not appropriate synonyms for adaptation.)
But returning to your main point... you want a page that lists bad adaptational changes? As in, the current, actual definition of Adaptation Decay, but with a comprehensive example list, rather than just in-universe examples? That is a bad idea. Such a page would just be a repository for people's personal complaints. Instead, we should document such changes on specific pages like Disneyfication or Adaptation-Induced Plot Hole, which identify actual tropes.
Many of our pages list Audience Reactions, but we try to tighten each one's definition so that they list specific phenomena rather than general emotions. For example, we have a page for Arc Fatigue, which lists slow, excessively long story arcs. It is highly subjective, but it is more useful than a page called Bad Arc, for arcs that are just "bad" for various reasons.
edited 18th Jun '12 3:16:07 AM by Routerie
Wrong.
As Ace said in post 7,
And that is mostly what the current "Adoption decay" entry says. Of course one problem with the current trope is that it talks about any change as qualifying, but with the underlying assumption that all change from source in adoption is either bad, or at best not a improvement, which is why the entry needs a bit of a rewrite as well as a rename as that is a horrible assumption. A assumption like that is not much better then the assumption that 'all or most tropes are bad', for example. The line you quoted from that page is just a good example of this base assumption.
Routerie, I never used morph as a noun and it wouldn't be a noun if in the title "Adaption morph" any more then decay is a noun in "Adaption decay". I got no clue what this noun thing your talking about, is about. Why "noun"?
And Routerie, how ever much patience you may have shown in replying to this thread, it hasn't extended to reading my posts as much. I could give a good number of clear examples of proofs of this, but I don't see anything other then a senseless OT argument coming out of that. Please pay attention to what I have been saying and don't force me to repeat myself multiple times.
edited 18th Jun '12 3:18:29 AM by truepurple
IIRC, the term "morph" was originally coined to describe the special effects in Willow and has generally been used to describe that sort of thing. It means to change from one physical form into another target form, not to change in general. When used as a noun, it means a form of something that morphs.
Since you brought up fluency, my impression of this thread from the beginning is that you are not a native English speaker. This is fine, but picking out proper names requires a good feel for how words are used, not just an understanding of their literal meaning. You seemed to be basing this whole proposal on a misunderstanding of the connotations of words and a general lack of knowledge about how tropes are normally arranged and organized. If fluency isn't the issue, I'm mistaken, but I would suggest double-checking what you wrote to ensure that it's clear and boning up on how tropes are ideally supposed to work before you try suggest changes. Administrivia would only take a couple hours to read at most.
"Adaptation Decay" is for poor adaptation. The page's description, laconic and examples and wicks support this. If you would like to change the page to Adaptation Drift, concentrating on the change rather than the loss of quality, I would support this, as I have in the past. But for now, it concentrates on bad adaptation.
You seem to, however, support an independent page for bad adaptations, one that includes examples. You have not said why that would be a good idea.
edited 18th Jun '12 3:32:24 AM by Routerie
"Decay" actually is a noun in Adaptation Decay, much like "tooth decay" or "riverbed erosion." To clarify, the examples are In-Universe of characters complaining that an adaptation was inferior to the original. The listed tropes about how works change in adaptation. They are not inherently good or bad, except for maybe Adaptation Induced Plothole. I don't think that's ever good.
I would also support changing Adaptation Decay to Adaptation Drift.
"my impression of this thread from the beginning is that you are not a native English speaker. "
Your impression is absolutely wrong.
"You seemed to be basing this whole proposal on a misunderstanding of the connotations of words "
If you think decay has a connotation of change in general, including change that results in improvement(not talking about cycle of life, of course), then it is your misunderstanding.
"a general lack of knowledge about how tropes are normally arranged and organized."
I have read many many pages on this website, so I got some idea on how they are arranged and organized. And how ever they are normally organized, the current "organization" (including the dividing up of concepts) of adoption pages, I clearly see room for improvement.
Again, I ask you, you expect reading Administrivia completely to satisfy your criticisms of my knowledge level, to be the way to "bone up" on how the wiki work? This is yet another example of me being forced to repeat myself because I am not being listened to sufficiently. FYI I read some of Administrivia, focusing on entries that are relevant and ignoring those that are clearly not, based on name.
edited 18th Jun '12 3:48:16 AM by truepurple
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Adaptation Decay
As I explain in conversation of this trope, I feel this one should be split into two tropes.
One for adoption decay, meaning loss of storyline because of friction between original source and changes, and from iconizing of story.(where expectations of iconic aspects of a line overwhelm the original story somewhat)
The other for Adoption morphing, meaning changes to the story from one format to another while mostly avoiding the issue of Adoption decay.
Right now, the trope reads as the latter only, adoption morphing, and the closest I could find for real "Adoption decay" in links was, Adaptation Induced Plot Hole. But this trope does not fully reflect what I am saying here.
- edit in*
If you don't feel this trope needs to be split into two, then this trope should be completely rewritten.edited 15th Jun '12 9:32:22 AM by truepurple