MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
United Earth
I've seen the "nice guy" thing happen, and the problem essentially boils down to the "nice guy" sending off really weird signals. They rarely assert themselves, they can be a total doormat, and they rarely, if ever, make their intentions clear, right up until they dump their feelings on the other person, usually without warning and at a really bad time.
Well, see, I've gotten good at not doing that at the start of the relationship, but, as we delve deeper, my terror of abandonment starts to creep in and I become that doormat. It doesn't even feel like that in the moment: it just feels like, I love the other person so much, I can't bring myself to get angry.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A procrastination in of itself
See that's one of my biggest fears, dating someone like that. Pushing them to do things they don't want to but they're unwilling to say no, having to constantly walk on egg shells around them for fears I'll accidentally make them do something they don't want to.
I was so angry at my ex when I found out she'd lied about liking doing certain things to make me happy. It's insulting that she did that, I still don't know what else she might have lied about and thus what parts of our relationship weren't real.
It made me so happy the first time my current girlfriend said no to me, I feel so free, I can suggest things without fear or worry, I don't have to constantly fear that I'm going to cross some unknown line and make her uncomfortable because I can trust that if I made her uncomfortable she'd tell me.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Obviously it's a problem if you do it all the time but doesn't everyone kind of do that? Doing things you don't strictly enjoy because your partner wants to is a sign of a healthy relationship in my mind. It shows that you're willing to be flexible and do things that make them happy.
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah but hiding the fact that you're doing something you don't like from your partner isn't a sign of a healthy relationship. Also there's a difference between doing something that makes you unhappy and doing something that only makes you happy because you're happy to make your partner happy.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
If my partner really wanted to do something that I didn't I might do it anyway to make them happy. While telling them isn't a bad idea it's also possible that they won't enjoy it as much if they know you don't want to do it. Obviously you shouldn't do this all the time but just declaring a blanket ban seems impractical and restrictive to me.
A procrastination in of itself
It'd argue that it's their desicion to make if they want to do the thing and that you shouldn't hide facts about it from them.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Amused
I was on the opposite side of that issue. My ex was the one making me do things or talk about that I didn't quite like or I was uncomfortable about. It wouldn't be the first time either as I have been sexually harassed by girls and guys before.
It's honestly disturbing to me just how people will ignore male cases of being in a controlling, unhealthy relationship or undergoing sexual harassment. I was just told that there was nothing wrong with the attention I was receiving or just to just up and try to ignore it....
Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth
No, the other one.
I'm also on the side of hiding something means the relationship isn't as healthy as it could be. Someone you're in a relationship is someone you're supposed to be able to trust, and hiding stuff is the opposite of trust. Unless you're hiding a surprise.
Check out my fanfiction!
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
I would think it's expected of people in couples to pretend to like stuff they don't just to make the other person happy, as long as the relationship isn't built on that, like going with her to a hockey game and pretending to be into it while in your head you're just mapping out Fire Emblem strategies and getting drunk on overpriced arena beer.
And there's nothing wrong with that, again, so long as it isn't foundational to the relationship, and isn't too one-sided in who has to be the pretender.
A procrastination in of itself
I guess different strokes for different folks, though I'd certainly be interested as to what the troopers with very long term relationship experience think on the issue.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
The law in the night
I've only had short term relationships, with the longest one lasting 6 months, and I had to gave up a few things during that last one, specially my choice of clothing and the amount of time I spent online.
I wouldn't really complain about it since me and her got into a compromise over that subject, I also think you should make an effort to at least try to do something you don't really like to make your partner happy as long as you're honest about it, it isn't one sided and it isn't used as a bargain tool.
Inter arma enim silent leges
I'm not against doing stuff just to please the other person, but I'd rather be honest about it (and it goes the other way as well, of course).
The Mod with the Migraine
There's nothing wrong with saying, "Look, I get you want to be doing X, but I'd just rather not." By the same token, if you do that every single time your partner wants to do X, you probably need to have a discussion about interests, especially if they're participating in things that you want them to.
That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
A procrastination in of itself
I get that, but our discussion was focused more on the he difference between going "No I'm okay with doing X, no it's not my thing but I like making you happy" and "Yeah I'm up for X, I enjoy us doing X" when you don't enjoy doing X.
It's not about if you do the thing or not, it's about if you admit to your partner that you don't like it (but are willing to do it anyway) or lie to them and pretend you do like it.
Here's an example, my girlfriend likes watching Rom Coms, I'm not a fan and don't enjoy them and she knows that. I still watch them with her though because she enjoys us watching them, what I don't do is pretend to like watching Rom Coms.
edited 28th Oct '16 9:17:11 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Communication will make or break your relationship. This is something I've talked about in the past in a different context, but something that's important to know if you have any intention of ever marrying a partner or otherwise spending your life with them: when you're married, you're not supposed to have dealbreakers. Because you're supposed to know your partner so well by that point that there's nothing about them that would constitute one.
Even if you're not planning to ever wed, that should be your goal in a relationship: getting to know your partner that well, and that means open and honest communication. And yes, sometimes open and honest communication will ultimately lead to the relationship ending. Sometimes you're just not well-suited to each other, like she's super religious and wants someone to go to church with her every Sunday and pray with her and raise children in a holy househould and you're a hardcore atheist that would rather be doing anything else. That happens. There's no such thing as a One True Love. Sometimes you just have to move on.
And sometimes it happens that your partner makes a mountain out of a molehill. Again, full disclosure, I'm white trash below the poverty line so I know people in less than savory professions on a personal basis. Some of my friends are or have been prostitutes at some point in their life, and through them I know that there are some men who make a huge deal out of it and feel like the woman is somehow "tainted" forever by the work - even when they had no problem with her having a large number of sexual partners in the past, doing it for money becomes a dealbreaker.
Again, that happens. Sometimes you're not a good match for each other. Other times, your partner might not be emotionally ready for a serious relationship and will flip out over something really trivial. Either way, you just gotta move forward. You will never be happy in a relationship until you find one where you can be you and she can be her and you're both happy with that.
Love, real love, isn't masks and pleasing fantasies and trying to be who you're not. It's knowing your partner inside and out and being accepting of it. The kind of relationship you should be striving for isn't one where you try to tolerate your partner's flaws, but one where you love them warts and all. And you're never going to find that without honesty.
edited 28th Oct '16 9:24:54 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently talking Dragon Ball and working my way back to Danganronpa V3.
Absolutely no relation to NLK
Well, I've been in a committed relationship for three years now. It definitely took some time till we could be fully open with each other, but by now, we can tell each other pretty much anything. Honestly we're so alike that we don't have many points of contention or things one loves that the other loathes — like, one of the few things I can think of is that I loathe clubs and don't have fun at house parties, so when one is coming up that she wants to go, she usually goes with her friends, and there's nothing wrong with that. Honestly, I just lucked out in that our interests align heavily, but there's still few things I wouldn't be willing to at least try if she really wanted us to do them together, and it goes both way.
So, I dunno.
ITT: TV Tropes dishes out heavy relationship advice. Not criticizing, it's just a bit of a really fast switch.
I'm not going to at all disagree with anything that's been said here. How true relationships require not just kindness but true compatibility and willingness to listen and openness and trust and comfort and security and all that lovely mushy romanticism stuff. It's all true.
That being said @Draghinazzo, I disagree that being horrible has nothing to do with the romantic success of assholes, in the same way that positions of power tend to attract the arrogant and egotistical. Being arrogant can appear as confidence. No sense of personal boundaries can be mistaken as being daring and sensual. Straight up, the "masculine ideal" is very easily faked by the wrong sort of people, and the dating system basically reinforces it. It's slightly different with guys, who are less required, socially speaking, to fall into said scenarios and are more encouraged to pick attractions based on physical looks and submissiveness (which results in a whole other set of fucked up ideal systems that have caused teenage girls pain and distress for centuries).
In other words, The Red Pill isn't wrong. You will get a girlfriend if you follow their advice to a T, sooner or alter. You will also fall into a loveless relationship built on distrust and mutual hatred, and likely a heaping of emotional abuse. Unfortunately for the users, and fortunately for the women suckered into these relationships, society is getting increasingly better at pinpointing and dismantling these relationships, hence the whole idea that "feminism is ruining good ol' romance", which has incredibly fucked up implications for the past few millenniums of human civilization.
And that's not something that can be fixed. You can't fix shit taste, be it in waifus or in husbandos. We can't magically eliminate assholes from the gene pool.
edited 28th Oct '16 11:10:01 AM by InAnOdderWay
Amused
There is also a strange tendency out their for abuse victims (or just victims of general assholery) to go for their abusers. I have seen it happen plenty of times with both gals and guys. It also happened to me once already.
And since society teaches you bullshit like Love is blind and You can fix him/her you're willing to look over seriously concerning faults. Some people don't take notice until it's to late unfortunately.
Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth
Queen of Good Things, Honest
"We're not saying you can change him, 'cause people don't really change / We're just saying that love's a force that's powerful and strange / People make bad choices when they're mad or scared or stressed / But throw a little love their way and you'll bring out their best!" ~Frozen providing the absolute worst romantic advice ever put to song in a Disney film. For a number of reasons!
My Tumblr. Currently talking Dragon Ball and working my way back to Danganronpa V3.
United Earth
Make an itemized list of your disagreements?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
If being an overconfident, arrogant SOB who never shows weakness in public was really the key to making women swoon I would have attracted a lot more women in high school and university.
That's not to say that being a bastard doesn't have its advantages. My fiancee and I became friends in the first place because she has trouble telling who likes her and who is just humouring her, and I'm a big enough son of a gun that she knew I'd never do the latter. I think we can all agree that's a pretty specific situation though.
@The Odder Way: My point was moreso that it wasn't being an asshole per se that was attractive, just certain qualities that some assholes possess or appear to possess. You can nurture the actually desirable qualities that they might project without actually being a horrible person in the process, and you'll be better off for it.
Amused
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That is partly why I dislike Frozen. The messages especially in regards to romance were still pretty bad despite Disney's attempts at trying to poke fun at their outdated romance and to be quite frank harmful themes. It felt more like Disney looked at those complaints and completely missed the point as to why people fine that misleading.
Also, Let it Go's message was about running away from your problems. Not female empowerment...
As for the other topic. To be quite frank their is much more complicated (or simple) reasons behind why a gal would end up going for a douchebag. Maybe she is a victim of the guy was putting on a mask, maybe their is more to him then you realize, maybe she just has bad taste, or maybe she just finds that attractive in some way for whichever reason.
Still with that said it's not as simple as Oh gals always go for douchey guys because confidence. I have seen nicer guys get attention before. Hell I am a shy guy who tries to be nice to every IRL and I have gotten attention before (albeit it was unwanted or unnerving attention part of the time). It's not as cut an dry as some of the more misguided guys out there seem to think.
Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth
Very recently I think I saw a more mundane nice guy kind of thing happen. One of my female friends has a friend (I am not sure if he is a friend anymore) whom was very clingy and honestly kind of patronizing in a way (although I am honestly not sure if he realized it) especially to her and her other friends. She was very unnerved by him and he only seemed to be acting this way after she broke up with a previous boyfriend
I met him and on the surface he seemed pretty nice but I noticed that he kept overstepping his bounds a lot with my friend. He didn't seem like a douchebag level of bad but he seemed to be misguided in niceties as well. She later came on to say that me being present was literally the only reason why she was calm.
....Later on the friendship broke down when I wasn't present. I don't exactly know what happened. I just know it wasn't pretty.....
Formerly known as Bleddyn And I am feeling like a ghost Resident Perky Goth