Sexism and Men's Issues

That is also part of it. The unfair standards as to which women are put to. We often discuss it more with other terms. Like the Madonna-Whore Complex I think is thrown around. Basically any time we talk about toxic standards that women need to adhere to, it has to do with how we perceive femininity.

It's similar to toxic masculinity, but not always, because the way gender roles and standards work for the genders are different. For instance, the way self-enforcing works can be quite different.

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Though weirdly a big part of the reason that the self enforcing differ is because the part of how these things are enforced is also gender coded.

As for othe parts of toxic feminity. There is also women holding other to arbitrary beauty standards, women refusing to be responsible for themselves because that's a man's job,women judging their status by who they're dating, and the general vibe of women can't be friends with other women because they can't trust them. There is lying and manipulation. Not all things that are coded feminine are good things.

edited 23rd May '16 11:46:50 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Sorry, double post

edited 23rd May '16 11:46:21 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I'm reminded of that stereotype situation of two guy friends versus two female friends who haven't seen each other in a long time.

For the guys, they're both like "what's up cuntface" and trade a bunch of slurs back and forth, but inside they're genuinely happy to see each other, they just want to display that in a cheeky way or a way that's socially acceptable for them to do so.

But then the women are both like "OMG I HAVEN'T SEEN YOU IN FOREVER YAAAAAAAAAS" but then inside they're like "ughhhhh this bitch again her dress is sooooooooo gross".

Toxic femininity is pretty much all the bullshit of "real women", so the idea that a women must want kids, the idea that it's not right for a women to be assertive, the idea of wifely duties, ect... It's any toxic idea of how one should be feminine.

The thing is both toxic masculinity and toxic feminity (my iPad keeps autocorrecting to feminist, clearly it's part of th patricharcial system :P) are generally self enforced on enforced by others of the same gender, when it's coming from outside a person's gender it's just standard sexist gender roles.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

The Torygraph on the Men's Rights movement. It's had much more thought put into it than most hitpieces on Corbyn the News Corp media have put out.

Emphasis mine. Maybe it's growing up as a minority in a country with a major selective enforcement issue with sedition laws and racist demagogues, but that's what resonates with me the most. I used to think that people in the First World would be willing to hold themselves to higher moral standards, to be the bigger person. That's the image the Men's Rights Movement broke for me (I thought that the political leaders were misinformed over Iraq).

edited 24th May '16 1:45:16 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

While I agree with some of his points, I completely disagree with the notion that we don't need a movement to address the problems with the men nowadays. Imagine if someone says the same for women's problems.

I hate to admit that it is these people that made men's issues are more visible than in the past, but it is also the same people that makes everyone one else refuse to do anything with it. What do you think what needs to be done?

At the same time, one particular aspect of men's rights are being taken away, namely the right to have gendered space. You don't see much male-only spaces (aside from toilets, but sometimes even then) nowadays, but female-only spaces is on the rise and shows no signs of decline anytime soon.

Speaking of toilets, I hate it when I see the sign "female cleaners on duty, please use other toilets if necessary." in front of male toilets. While male cleaners are hard to hire nowadays, I prefer if the toilet is being closed when female cleaners are on duty. Their presence made me uncomfortable, yet I feel I have no recourse to complain.

edited 24th May '16 6:28:42 AM by murazrai

I disagree with a few things in that article.

I may be misremembering (and it may by different in the UK vs the US), but my recollection is that male-on-female vs female-on-male domestic violence isn't as lopsided as one might think. There's also the fact that female-on-male domestic violence tends to result in more serious injury (ie, cuts and bruises vs stabbings and bludgeonings) and is often taken less seriously (because big strong men could never be hurt by weak fragile women).

Men also do face discrimination and belittling because of their gender, just not in the exact same way as women. Men are more likely to face ridicule when asking for (or just needing) help from others, whether we're talking about government services, private charity, mental health issues, or whatever. Oftentimes, a woman who needs help is treated as a victim, while a man that needs help is treated as a failure.

Of course, insert the standard disclaimer about how pointing out that men can face problems for being male doesn't mean that the problems women face for being women are any less real or any less important. But saying that men don't face problems ultimately caused by the fact that they're men is flat-out wrong.

And the gold medal in Oppression Olympics goes to... women! Sorry, men, the fact that women have problems mean that your problems don't count for anything. So man up and stop whining, sissy.

Two thirds of the way of the article, we almost get there, but he manages to screw it up at the end. It's absolutely about rights. Not the right to maintain privilege over women (which is what MRA people are generally actually about), but receiving fair treatment regardless of your gender is absolutely a right, for everyone, including men.

So access to mental health care without being subject to skepticism or ridicule isn't a right because...?

The idea that men being screwed by other men doesn't count because it's ultimately a wash for Team Male is stupid.

That's a fair point. The problem with MRA assholes is that they're not actually focused on improving gender issues for men, they're a backlash against feminism. Men's problems are not the fault of feminists or women in general. (At least, not any more than women as well as men help reinforce gender roles and stereotypes.)

This is why I hate the MRA crowd — they poison the well. Most self-identifying MRA people are raging misogynistic assholes. That doesn't mean that men's issues aren't a real thing that deserves attention. That doesn't mean that men can't be victims. But when most people''s experience with the male gender issues are anti-feminist assholes, that reflects badly on the entire concept. It's Don't Shoot the Message at its finest.

So close and yet so far. Yes, it's true that equal rights for everyone doesn't mean taking things away from anyone. But it's also true that there are some ways in which men don't enjoy equal rights. The sentiment cuts both ways — women wanting to address issues facing women doesn't take anything away from men, but men wanting to address issues facing men doesn't take away from women, either.

The problem is that the self-proclaimed MRA crowd largely don't actually want to address issues facing men, not that men don't have issues that need addressing.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

[Citation needed]

Allright. Sorry.

edited 24th May '16 11:41:56 AM by Quag15

Reddit is not the topic of discussion here. If anyone wants to refute the counter argument made on Reddit go ahead, but debating the quality of Reddit is off topic.

X3 Pretty much sums up my thoughts. He's not wrong about MR As, but he throws the baby of genuine men's issues out with the bathwater.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

A man dismissing misandrism?

So out of curiousity, I actually went and watched a couple of Girl Writes What videos. They're... not as bad as they could be.

One problem is that she's sort of talking off the cuff and making statements that aren't cited, which makes it difficult to fact-check her claims. That said, she's not much worse in that regard than any number of feminist counterparts. She's not writing scholarly papers, and while I'd prefer to at least see a link or something in her videos' descriptions, I didn't hear any particularly extraordinary statistical claims that I wasn't willing to give her the benefit of the doubt over.

She also has a habit of referring to feminists and feminism as a singular monolithic block (which is part of a greater trend of presenting things as absolutes instead of acknowledging that trends can be clear even while shades of grey exist), which is annoying but doesn't really affect her ultimate argument. She actually has a video about people telling her that not all feminists are as bad as she paints them. Her response is to... read out certain quotes from certain feminists (politicians and celebrities and the like, not just internet randos) and pick them apart, which isn't a great thing. Honestly though, I'm not sure what a good response to the "not all feminists" argument is — there's no real way to prove what is or isn't "mainstream" in a movement as broad and decentralized as feminism, so it really boils down both sides saying "here's my view of this subjective topic, which is better than yours because it's mine".

Where she really falls down is blaming feminism for male problems. I'm not entirely sure if she actually thinks they've made things worse for men or just that they're culpable for not taking male issues into account, but either way, I can't agree. Feminism is the movement for women's issues, so blaming them for not addressing men's issues is silly. It's like blaming the police department for arresting criminals instead of putting out fires. That's not the police's job, that's what the fire department is for. Of course, in this analogy, we don't really have a functioning fire department (a men's issues movement that's actually about men's issues rather than being anti-feminism), but the answer to that is to set one up, not to blame the police department for your lack of fire department. There is absolutely room for both movements (and they should be allies, not opposed to each other), but right now the men's side of things just isn't there.

tldr, while I haven't looked at anything like all her stuff and it's certainly possible that she's got some genuinely nutso beliefs in there somewhere, from what I've seen she doesn't seem completely insane even if I don't agree with her conclusions.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

That's sounds about right, although it was quite some time since I last watched one of her videos. As I said before, "most things [she says] about feminism are better off ignored." Treating it as a single, unified movement centred around "patriarchy" (she never says that term without doubt quotes), while picking out the worst of them as standard members of the movement.

On the other hand, she does raise several actual issues men face that are worth of discussing. Her videos are certainly worth watching if you want a different perspective or opinion, and you're not just searching for an echo chamber (which I find is a general problem with online movements: people are just searching for opinions they already agree with). Most of the time, when she's not attacking feminism, she's good at making arguments.

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Yeah, a problem a lot of people (including or especially critics of feminism) is abusing the No True Scotsman argument. Because, sometimes, different groups operate under the same name and claim to be the only true Scotsmen.

edited 24th May '16 5:52:49 PM by Protagonist506

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

I feel like it shouldn't be ignored though. Feminism is a movement that has had impacts in the past on the public eye. You can't just say that any potentially bad effects of the ideologies surrounding the movement aren't feminism, but any potentially good effects of the ideologies surrounding the movement totally are feminism.

Even if it's not the intent, a lot of places that promote and support feminism do so in a way that indirectly causes other issues, and yes some of those issues are relating to men's rights. And the best thing that can be done is to own up to these failings, and try to correct them going forward.

I wouldn't exclude, say, young women who don't understand the full ramifications and subtleties of social issues and who act unreasonably in promoting social justice as NOT being part of feminism or deny that they harm the image of the movement, but to my understanding, sensible people in those groups usually reprimand them and try to fix the image problem to the best of their ability.

It's an uphill climb though. Speaking from my own experience it's very hard to convince people in general that feminism can be perfectly benign and not an ideology that promotes women above men, because it's an idea contradictory to what a lot of people would assume.

edited 24th May '16 9:27:48 PM by wehrmacht

I feel like it's important to understand sensibility and image, but I'm more talking about the attention to the issues that feminism has drawn attention to. It has done a lot of change over the decades in society, and even if it hasn't been completely adopted yet it does do a lot of good at drawing attention to the raw deal that women get a lot of the time.

It's just that this ideology (and I am talking about the ideology, not necessarily the 2016 edition of the movement, here) has some Unfortunate Implications in it, implications that in turn promote the very values that feminism stands against. The idea that because men "have it easy", there's no need to support them, or that it's instead their duty to support women. The whole "Women Are Special" thing comes from that, and it doesn't help anyone.

The only real problem I see in the feminist movement with regards to men's issues is that feminists sometimes claim that since feminism is about equality, a men's issues movement isn't necessary — just be feminist, and that will solve men's issues as well. I don't really agree with that. Feminism may address men's issues sometimes, but only as a facet of women's issues, because feminism is a women's issues movement. A men's issues movement as a counterpart is absolutely necessary, but the idea has been so tainted by anti-feminists that it's hard for it to gain any traction. If you say that you support men's issues then you're automatically suspect — you're on the defensive, and the first thing you have to do is prove that seriously, you're really about men's issues, not actually just anti-feminist. I don't even blame feminism for that reaction, I blame the MRA anti-feminist asshats for poisoning the well. But it's still an issue that needs to be addressed before the idea of a men's issues movement can gain any legitimacy.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Yeah, I blame MRA groups more than anything for setbacks in men's rights. They've made it a joke, a punchline. They've made them out to just be a group of men angry and women. They've lost the real issues in whining about how they aren't getting laid as much as they think they should be. They're killing the important bits by drowning them in gallons of hate.

When over ninety percent of what you say is hateful bullshit, people assume the rest is too.

edited 25th May '16 6:42:05 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Yeah MR As have poisoned the well not just by the asshole things they've said but also with the lies they've spread that many men and women belive. MRA insist that they are all men, that they represent men, that all men are living stereotypes that benefit from the system as is.

And that lie has been bought, you can see it in the Telegraph bit, he honestly thinks that all men are as privileged as him. He can't understand that men might want to do 'non-masculine' takes like housekeeping, he doesn't belive that men suffer gendered psychological issues, he certainly doesn't acknowledge the issues faced by 'non-masculine' men or male victims of abuse or rape.

He thinks that men exist in two groups, privileged assholes and the privileged enlightened, because he's so privileged the idea of a man not being as privileged as him makes no sense.

It's a brilliant example of privileged blindness and a great win for MR As, they've successfully convinced much of the world that I and many men in this thread don't exist.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran