MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
No longer a forum herald
Uh...you sure you don't want to rephrase that? 
United Earth
Maybe it's spotlight bias and he's very exposed to the worst Feminists have to offer.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Ahr river
Honestly most things about feminism from what I've seen should be listened to, although you do get aspects of feminism that are shitty, but mostly it's things that exist in most places regardless of feminism, ableism, racism, etc. etc.
A uniquely shitty feminist thing I've seen is terfdom, so there is that.
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Collector Of Fine Oddities
Karen Straughan eh? Is she still affiliated with Paul Elam and his merry band of he-man woman haters or has she washed her hands of the louts?
Jupiterian Local
I think Duck meant "most things that post has to say about feminism should be ignored".
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Ahr river
Aaah that makes more sense. Ignore me then.
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No, the other one.
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Something like that.
I find Karen Straughan a very mixed bag of reason and somewhat less reason. She's usually rather good at arguing, though, so whether you agree or not it can be a good idea to listen. She's also coming from a different point of view than most I've heard. It's related to what I've said before about how highlighting issues that exist tends to be a good thing, but fighting between various groups tends to be bad.
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My problem with the handling of the concept of "toxic masculinity" is that, while it technically shouldn't be used to negatively refer to masculinity itself, it often is far too often. It's more often used as a way to justify why people shouldn't be roped into gender roles at all, or to be more specific why it's okay for guys to express traditionally feminine traits. Which I totally agree with, but it hurts the argument that only "toxic" masculinity is bad.
Basically, one group is saying "toxic masculinity is bad, femininity is fantastic", the other is saying "masculinity is fantastic", and even if group 1 doesn't intend to condemn masculinity, through not putting up any sort of idea of what "non-toxic masculinity" would look like, it's easy to read it as simply a condemnation, while group 2, even if their definition of "masculinity" is fraught with lots of stupid bullshit, still appears as a glorification of masculinity, which is more attractive to those who want to express masculine traits, and see group 1 as condemning their pursuits.
Or, to drop the subtext, guys unsure of their identity are more likely to go with groups reaffirming their masculinity than groups that, too them, are saying "Masculinity sucks, and you just need to admit your feminine traits and it'll improve your life" as opposed to the groups saying "don't listen to those chumps, masculinity's awesome and if you continue your pursuits through our totally not terrible methods your life will improve".
A procrastination in of itself
I'd say that the problem there's is the "femininity is great" but, if you're throwing out gender roles you shouldn't be saying say, you should be saying "being however you are is great and we should top attaching gender labels to behaviours". You shouldn't be telling telling people to be X or Y, you should be telling them that the entire X Y system is bullshit and they should just be them in a non-harmful way.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
United Earth
Nontoxic Masculinity: The Art Of Manliness. For example, sensible advice on dealing with depression
. apologizing, or teaching your kids to love being fit.
No, the other one.
I don't think the problem lies in labelling traits as masculine and feminine. The problem lies in valuing those differently because of that label, or restricting them to one gender. Nothing wrong with being a masculine woman or a feminine man.
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The fact that we gave the 'feminine' or 'masculine' labels in the first place already shows we value them differently, even if our our ideas get all over the place.
Especially our ideas on the 'masculine woman'. Sometimes we want women to be feminine, sometimes we invoke Real Women Never Wear Dresses which treats 'femininity = weak = bad' and 'masculinity = strong = good', even though 'masculine' values such as violence and aggression aren't universally good. And then there's attaching 'femininity' to hobbies such as liking theaters, skirts, high heels, and the color pink. Yes, some of these traits used to be considered masculine, that supports my point even further.
I still believe gender labels prevent us from evaluating 'feminine' or 'masculine' traits on their own merits, instead encouraging us to worry about how a trait is 'feminine' and 'masculine' as if those were really important factors in how to treat those traits. Should a fighter be a gruff, muscled, wrestling barbarian if male, only to become a sexually attractive Waif-Fu who conveniently never gets hit if female?
edited 23rd May '16 7:40:13 AM by hellomoto
Because that's what they used to be called, and for the sake of not complicating the dichotomy to even stupider levels of convolution it makes sense to keep it that way.
And, well, they exist. The traits associated with masculinity and femininity, exist, and even if they aren't exclusive they tend to be grouped together. Just because you dislodge sex from gender and gender from gender traits doesn't mean that any of the three suddenly ceases to exist.
Basically, you can declare globally that "gender traits are dead and you can do what you want now", but people, being people, are still going to congregate to those traits. And that's not suddenly going to change anytime soon. What can be done is to show people that A., they don't necessarily have to subscribe to any side, B. just because they identify with one doesn't mean that they have to deny all connection with the other, and C., show people that they can align themselves with one without having to be a raging asshole.
Yeah. Furthermore while gender does not necessarily dictate a person's personality, there are definitely traits which are more common in men than in women, and vice versa; while there's pretty much complete overlap between the male and female brain, there is also a very distinct correlation between biological sex and certain personality traits. As with other aspects of personality, the nature versus nurture debate rears its head, but our current research on that topic seems to indicate that its a bit of both.
edited 23rd May '16 7:32:32 AM by CaptainCapsase
So I shouldn't shout at people for putting traits as 'feminine' or 'masculine'?
Jupiterian Local
The entire point of the term "toxic masculinity" is to distinguish between masculine behaviors and attitudes that are harmful and those that aren't. If people thought that being masculine was bad period, then they wouldn't need a separate term for masculine things that are bad, they would just say "masculinity is bad". The distinction between "masculinity" and "toxic masculinity" is that toxic masculinity is harmful and should be avoided, while just plain masculinity is fine.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Unless they're implying that men cannot be X and women can only be Y, and so on, probably not.
I pretty much agree with the above. My problem is that it's more often used as a reason why it's okay for someone to embrace more feminine traits, while rarely used as a way to distinguish between positive and negative masculine traits. Both are good, but the overabundance of one sends the wrong message to the sort of people who would be best benefited by the split.
EDIT: Also, to repeat, the traits aren't liked to gender. It's an Artifact Title, but it just makes the discussion easier to go through. And to repeat again, most people aren't entirely on one side or another. Someone (regardless of gender) who primarily identifies with masculine traits can still show feminine traits, and someone who idealizes femininity can still show masculine traits.
edited 23rd May '16 7:50:30 AM by InAnOdderWay
A procrastination in of itself
X4 Generlsly shouting never helps anyway.
That's what happens when you've got two movements at different stages, feminism has made many formerly masculine traits gender neutral, but men's issues groups have yet to do the same for feminine traits.
belongs to the hurricane
Partly because the men's issues movement isn't really very unified or even much of a movement at this point.
No, the other one.
The context of how the label is used is what implies (or outright states) a value. "She's one of those fun and sporty types," holds a positive value of the label, while, "She's one of those dumb and sporty types," holds a negative value.
Now, many labels certainly have values place on them. Calling someone a jerk is pretty universally a negative label. That's the kind of use we should try to curb when it comes to feminine and masculine.
Descriptive, not prescriptive, and all that.
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For the record, Toxic Femininity is also a thing, and pointing that out tends to help with retorical arguments. Also, some people arguing that masculinity in general are coming from a place of all gender labels are bad/harmful. They'd consider femininity the same level of harmful. I think calling out both sides of the coin helps illustrate that the issue isn't mean or women, but the toxic ideals that society pushes as normal.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Ahr river
Yep. It can be hard to notice in the US due to how we value them comparatively, but anything with "our duty as women" usually can be a red flag for toxic femininity.
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belongs to the hurricane
I don't know how people define "toxic femininity", but to me the idea brings to mind those kinds of women who bash hillary clinton for "not satisfying her man" and blame her for bill clinton having an affair with his secretary.
I'd say that while that person does have several interesting points about various aspects of equality, most things about feminism are better off ignored.
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