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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#15526: Oct 13th 2015 at 2:54:01 PM

Can you say your point again in Spanish?

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#15527: Oct 13th 2015 at 3:12:59 PM

I can give you a hand with that if you want, unknowing.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#15528: Oct 14th 2015 at 11:42:47 AM

Ughhhhh, just forget it, I dont have time or the internet to correct me this time so just go head and skip my post until I get inter again.

edited 14th Oct '15 11:54:53 AM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#15529: Oct 20th 2015 at 2:39:20 AM

An editorial sums up why we need a men's movement. tl;dr - so we don't turn into hypermasculine monsters.

About a year ago, I began a quiet one-year residency at a prestigious American university, invited because there were endless allegations by female students about rape and other forms of sexual assault by fraternity members and male athletes on campus. School administrators were red-faced and eager for outside help.

My task: work with young men on campus and get them to rethink what manhood means, in a way that would lead, hopefully, over time to their viewing women and girls as their equals. If we were lucky, a few of these male students would become vocal allies in the work to end gender violence, particularly since the vast majority of cases involve men and boys attacking women and girls in some way, in the U.S. and on our planet.

In my initial interactions, I spent a full week meeting with every fraternity on campus and captains of various sports teams, including the nationally ranked football team. I knew the guys were not comfortable with these mandatory gatherings, so I started each with a simple question: What is a man?

Sighs of relief and phrases such as "leader," "protector," "caretaker," "responsible," "head of the house" fell from their mouths. Each session, I told them that they had just described my single mother and most women I've encountered in my life. These young men would grow quiet.

I then asked them to name at least 10 women in American history. The usual list: Rosa Parks, Betsy Ross, Hillary Clinton, Helen Keller and Florence Nightingale, and they would inevitably stall. Pressed to tell me something about each of these women, only a handful could ever answer that question. When you don't know something about a group or people, any people, people different from you, it becomes very easy not to honor them as your equals, easy not to respect them, easy not to love them, easy not to see their lives as valuable as yours. And easy to directly and indirectly participate in hurting that group, with your language, with your deeds, with your ignorance and reckless disregard for their humanity.

This is why when I think about manhood in our 21st-century context, I think instantly of mayhem, confusion, violence. These things have come in the form of one mass shooter after another, murdering people at work, on military bases, on college campuses, in grade schools. These things have come in the form of misogynistic comments from men as different in pedigree as billionaire presidential candidate Donald Trump and Grammy Award-winning rapper T.I. These things have come in the form of my travel as a speaker and activist, reading local newspaper stories of men and boys, more aggressively and brutally than ever, raping or killing women and girls, oftentimes their girlfriends or wives.

It is clear to me that manhood in this nation is in deep crisis, our growth stunted at epidemic proportions. Meanwhile, few are talking about or doing anything remotely close to addressing the issue. When we brace ourselves for the next mass murder, we are quick to cite gun control and mental illness, but rarely do we ask, Why are the overwhelming majority of these mass shooters men? When we see poor men in poor communities blow each other away with guns, quite a few of us utter a litany of socioeconomic factors, but rarely do I hear, Why are these boys-to-men doing this to themselves, to each other?

As I led the sessions with these college men, work I have done now for over 20 years, I spent many restless nights pondering the irony of this part of my activism. I grew up as most heterosexual boys did: I played every sport possible. I learned early on the rite-of-passage of seeing girls as sexual objects, as playthings, as anything except my equal. I fought because boys were taught to fight, be rough, antagonistic, to never show weakness, not even to cry, at least not in public. I digested every kind of pop cultural icon one could name, on television, in movies, in books, in my beloved hip-hop culture, who represented the mighty male figure that armies of us were instructed we must become.

This behavior led to catastrophic results for me. I had no clue how to express a balance of emotions for many years: It was either thunderous silence or raw explosions of rage. I did not know how to give love to myself or women and girls, and by the time I got to college, I merely did what other young males on my campus did: I had sex as casually as I slipped on my jeans and sneakers, and often did not give much thought to the woman on the receiving end. And I eventually pushed a girlfriend, post-college, into a bathroom door as we were arguing, the culmination of years of backward and very warped definitions of manhood imprisoned in pain and trauma.

I got help, in the form of years of therapy, my ever-evolving spiritual faith, a circle of women and men who mentored me, over time, to understand the damaging effects of manhood rooted in the characteristics I explain above. Some think that being physical toward a woman or girl is the only form of violence. I have worked with both female survivors of domestic violence and male batterers for whom the violence was emotional, verbal, financial or all of the above, anything to maintain control.

This is what made those sessions with the young men at that university so difficult. Many of them, I'm sure, will go on to become CE Os of Fortune 500 companies, elected officials, leaders of various industries and professions, but very few of them even knew the histories of their own mothers or grandmothers or sisters. Few had a clue about pay inequality or sexual harassment. And fewer still could understand why we spent so much time discussing consent and why coercing a woman to have sex while she is drunk is rape.

I do not know what will happen to those young men I worked with for a year. What I do know is this: Just as the feminist movement in America has challenged male domination in every form, a men's movement is needed now more than ever before. The movement must be inclusive of males of all ages and backgrounds, rooted in peace, love and healthy definitions of manhood that include viewing women and girls as our equals. It should be a movement that is not in opposition to women, not trying to return to the days of "the rugged man," but one that makes room for every kind of man possible (including men on the LGBTQ spectrum), where we can be vulnerable, emotionally available, truly free.

That movement needs to include a re-education of men and boys, no matter the demographic, where we actually learn about the contributions of women and girls to every aspect of American society. It must teach boys about manhood, about womanhood, as early as their preteen years, and it needs to be a part of sports culture early on, too. It should be in our schools, in our faith-based institutions, in our mass media culture. We need to see this movement as critical to the future of our nation as the civil rights movement was: an effort to shift from ignorant and despicable behavior toward love for human beings different from us.

Finally, I have many men say to me that they respect women. Respect is not enough at this stage, even if you are not the kind of man who would ever call a woman the b word, or make disrespectful or derogatory declarations about what women and girls can and cannot do, or should and should not do. Even if you would never punch, kick, bite, spit on or fight a woman, or rape a woman, stab or shoot and murder a woman, you have men and boys in your family, in your community, in your fraternity or political group or spiritual institution, or in your workplace or places of play, who do or have done these things. And when you say nothing at all, you become just as guilty.

And in men's legal news, a judge grants "leniency" to a teenager convicted of misdemeanor sexual misconduct - having sex with a girl who lied about her age.

A judge has resentenced an Indiana teenager — who was put on the sexual offender registry in two states after having sex with a underage teen he met on a dating app — to two years of probation. Zach Anderson was 19 when he had sex with a girl from a nearby town who had told the boy she was 17 when in reality she was only 14. Even if the sex was consensual and even if the girl did lie about her age, it is not a defense under current sex offender laws.

Anderson pleaded guilty this year to misdemeanor criminal sexual conduct. Because of his age, Anderson's original sentence was thrown out last month and he was resentenced Monday under Michigan's Holmes Youthful Trainee Act. The law provides leniency for first-time offenders between the ages of 17-20. Judge Angela Pasula was "very professional and very kind," Zach's father Les Anderson said Monday. "It was a fair sentence."

The younger Anderson was originally given five years probation after a 90-day jail sentence and was required to stay on the Michigan and Indiana state sex offender registries for 25 years. Now 20, Anderson will no longer be on the Michigan registry — the state where he had sex with the girl. "It's a really good feeling," said Anderson. "A lot better than the first time." In his home state of Indiana, he may have to stay on the registry during the term of his probation. If Indiana adds him to the sex offenders list, his legal team plans to appeal, his father said.

Earlier this year, Anderson said he went to an online dating site called Hot or Not and met a girl who said she was 17, who lived in a town about 20 miles away across the state line in southern Michigan from his home in Elkhart, Indiana. The girl admitted she was only 14 after the fact — but by law, he had committed a sex crime.

Even with the resentencing, Anderson still faces restrictions on his freedom. Previously forbidden from using a computer, he can now use one for school projects. The judge said Anderson could spend time alone with his younger brother who is 15. The family wasn't immediately sure if Anderson could move back home where his brother lives, something prohibited under the original sentence.

Still, Anderson was grateful for the reduction in his sentence, especially given the consequences of a long-term stay on the sex offenders list. "Twenty-five years on the sex offender registry meant that I wouldn't be able to go to the skate park until I was 45 and by then, I probably wouldn't even want to go," he said. "If I had kids, I wouldn't have been able to go to their school functions."

Couldn't he claim rape-by-fraud, as a legitimate legal defense, since the girl lied about who she was (and probably violated the user agreement terms for the app)?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#15530: Oct 20th 2015 at 4:54:19 AM

[up]He could have, yeah. But chances are that would have only made stuff worse as people picked up on this and made a bigger mess on that.

I sympathize with him somewhat. Occasionally when I am talking with some people on the net about touchy subjects I tend to avoid replying to some of the points they raised as I feel it would only impassion everyone's feelings further and just start a fight.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#15531: Oct 20th 2015 at 7:49:33 AM

The problem is in the way the law is written. It should be a defense that she lied about her age (and even if she didn't mention her age, it should be a defense that he could reasonably believe she was old enough). Intent is a key concept in criminal law. Strict liability is an abomination.

I don't think the girl should face rape-by-fraud charges (by the way, the concept seems to cover a bit too much for my taste). I expect the app moderators to close her account for violating the terms of service, though.

edited 20th Oct '15 7:52:59 AM by Khudzlin

TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#15532: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:07:18 AM

How do you prove she lied about her age? Conversely, how do you disprove that such a conversation occurred?

Sex crimes are notoriously difficult to prove details for because 90% of the details are He Said/She Said. This is what makes rape such a difficult crime to prosecute in the first place. With statutory rape charges, if "I swear, she said she was older," was allowed as a defense then nobody could ever be convicted because everyone can claim that and you can't prove she didn't say it. Presumption of innocence would functionally legalize sex with children by making the law impossible to enforce.

EDIT: Wait, dating app? Okay, yeah, that's physical evidence. That's something that didn't exist at the time the law was written.

edited 20th Oct '15 9:09:41 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#15533: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:12:37 AM

Which is why current laws should be modified to cover such cases.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#15534: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:32:25 AM

The editorial about needing a men's movement is a good one, though I do disagree with one piece of it: the idea that men's behavior is getting worse. It's not that behavior is getting worse, it's that the standards of what's considered acceptable is changing faster than behavior is.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#15535: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:43:35 AM

[up][up][up]So rape by deception is already functionally legalised, as deception is just as hard to prove?

[up]The more I read stuff like that, the less I feel I understand men.

Check out my fanfiction!
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#15536: Oct 20th 2015 at 9:52:24 AM

Good. You are starting to realize that in truth...we know a lot about nothing.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#15537: Oct 20th 2015 at 10:00:57 AM

Not really. That's not exactly news to me.

Check out my fanfiction!
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#15538: Oct 20th 2015 at 10:05:56 AM

So rape by deception is already functionally legalised, as deception is just as hard to prove?

Rape is already functionally legalized. It doesn't need any qualifiers added. It is so difficult to prove that it makes it incredibly difficult to prosecute. Medical science can prove that sex occurred but the presence or absence of consent does not leave physical evidence unless force was involved. Rape is already a matter of He Said / She Said in a court of law, which results in a majority of rape accusations ending in failure.

Statutory rape, on the other hand, is easy to prove because medical science can prove that sex occurred, and because statutory rape criminalizes any act of sex with a minor, that's enough.

edited 20th Oct '15 10:06:56 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#15539: Oct 20th 2015 at 10:10:00 AM

[up][up]But if you knew that you know nothing about what you know, and this is nothing, then how come you say you know about knowing nothing while knowing nothing about nothing?

I wonder, and shiver when I do so, just how many actual cases in the future will rise up that will use the excuse "She had a dating app profile, so this means she was ok with sex and hence not a rape".

Even sex Ed has to keep up with this new sorta shit.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#15540: Oct 20th 2015 at 10:17:28 AM

[up]You should answer that yourself, since it was your claim to begin with. Aside from the fact that you're paraphrasing stuff to make it seem funny profound in a way that makes it not hold true to what was originally said.

I think that excuse holds up about as much as if someone said they were once okay with having sex, but not at a later time. Which is also different from the case here.

[up][up]Then we have a lot of convictions for something that's functionally legalised.

Check out my fanfiction!
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#15541: Oct 20th 2015 at 10:20:09 AM

You should answer that yourself

I wouldn't know. After all, I know nothing!

As for the excuse...yes. The difference is that I am just cringing about how many people will present dating apps as "evidence" now. It is still a stupid thing, of course.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#15542: Oct 20th 2015 at 10:28:45 AM

The more I read stuff like that, the less I feel I understand men.

What do you mean? It's not actually that complicated, most men are ruled by fairly predictable desires and a harmful definition of masculinity that they live by.

The editorial about needing a men's movement is a good one, though I do disagree with one piece of it: the idea that men's behavior is getting worse. It's not that behavior is getting worse, it's that the standards of what's considered acceptable is changing faster than behavior is.

Pretty much this.

edited 20th Oct '15 10:29:27 AM by wehrmacht

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#15543: Oct 20th 2015 at 10:42:49 AM

[up][up]It would be evidence. Evidence that held true at the moment it was registered, but not necessarily at the act where it needs to hold true.

[up]I guess I should say, it's nothing I recognise from any men I'm familiar with.

Check out my fanfiction!
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#15544: Oct 20th 2015 at 11:19:40 AM

personal experience is going to vary.

it's also not necessarily always something that is going to be super transparent in a person's public behavior. Bob Mc Nice Guy might seem like a perfectly affable, normal person, and in private he might never beat women or say rude and misogynistic things to them, but he might also post on an internet forum about how he can't get women and how unfair it is that he isn't getting his "due".

these things can be subtle or less subtle.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#15545: Oct 20th 2015 at 11:21:26 AM

I've been spending the past year and a half living in dorms with, spending time in rec halls near, and eating among these kind of men. I know exactly what the article is talking about. And considering we are in the age ranges of 16-25, I say here's hoping the next gen are raised to be better than this.

The Blog The Art
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#15546: Oct 20th 2015 at 11:25:38 AM

Then we have a lot of convictions for something that's functionally legalised.

Even ignoring the rapes that go unreported, I wouldn't describe a 7% conviction rate for rapes that are reported as "a lot of convictions".

When over 90% of people who commit a crime will never see a day in jail or even a slap-on-the-wrist fine, I would describe that situation as "functionally legalized".

edited 20th Oct '15 11:26:47 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#15547: Oct 20th 2015 at 12:36:52 PM

i have faith that male behavior will improve over time but for that to happen it's very important that the people who do care about it continue to push for it, because they're fighting an enormous uphill battle and need all the help they can get.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#15548: Oct 20th 2015 at 12:49:10 PM

[up][up][up][up]that would make him whinning at best, I mean yes that happen a lot with men but entitled behivor is not exclusive of them.

And about rape...yeah, Tobias is spot here, almost all awarness cant stop the fact that is his/her word against him/her, who you should belive?

edited 20th Oct '15 12:49:23 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#15549: Oct 20th 2015 at 12:56:30 PM

the issue isn't so much about harming people, the issue is that it harms men too to think that way. and beliefs DO often, perhaps even eventually, lead to action. so eventually that same guy might rape a woman because he doesn't properly understand consent and is desperate, because nobody told him about it.

if you stop thinking of women as prizes and "love" as a game, and stop putting so much weight on finding a partner or getting laid you'll be happier. it's important that this conception of masculinity disappears as soon as possible.

edited 20th Oct '15 12:57:00 PM by wehrmacht

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#15550: Oct 20th 2015 at 1:02:18 PM

Well, male behavior has improved.

Somewhat.

I mean, compared to like.

Victorian times, at least.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

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