Sexism and Men's Issues

I watched it:p

The author seems to have a good view of things, I'm not sure how much I agree or disagree with her, but what she's saying seems well thought-out. On the other hand, it REALLY irritates me when people take this sort of upper-class alpha male privilege and applies it to all men.

yes, I agree she speaks on behalf of both genders too broadly, as the male commentator brought up with how Latino and African American men being intensely affected by the prison system.

But I think her comments on how women are confused over what we want from men, how women need to give men freedom to help, (the sitcom evolution), and what not while too general as her critic pointed out could be a needed lesson for some groups.

I would love for a father to be able to work part time so he can be there for the kids more and the thought of his manhood never even be considered. But we have a way to go.

I appreciate how it was pointed out even though women are graduating with more degrees, women are still in comparison to men, underemployed or unable to break in their fields.

Just was a very well rounded discussion that brought up a lot of problems, but I wish they focused on more solutions.

One of the problems is that there really isn't any sort of easy or feasible solutions for that particular problem. You could institute a society wide quota system for hiring, but I don't think that's either easy nor feasible.

Truth is the only solution is time. We're not even a lifetime removed from equality being an important thing in our society. I do think that things will look better in 20 years basically solely because of generational shift.

Some things we can change now. Our prison system needs a major overhaul. We need to get it back from private hands as well as crack down on districts who give harsher sentances for minorities (especially in drug charges) against their white counterparts.

We could make Gender Issues a required college course right alongside eerything else we have to have. I would love to have Gender Issues taught in high school. It could even be fit into the existing biology, history, and home ec classes. But as long as we have a stranglehold on teaching for the test, not for results, there will never be room in our current education system for even just one chapter.

A little bit can go a long way until we are able to institute the bigger changes we need. I'm glad that people are discussing it more, that in itself is a wonderful improvement and can do more positive change then what most people probably give credit for.

The prison system can't really change until the public sees it as more of a system of deterrence and rehabilitation rather than retribution.

That isn't to say that rebtribution (in the form of catharsis) isn't beneficial (nobody wants to have family murdered and the killer given a brand new Ferrari), but too much of the prison system is based upon it. When you tell people about how horrible prison is and how much murder and rape goes in there, their first response is typical: "Good".

Thread Hop: whassup?

I was browsing Rational Wiki when I stumbled upon Creep Shaming. Basically the flip side Slut Shaming where women giving men who take an interest in them a hard time.

The page is quick to to concept as denounce as 'entitled' male butthurt but I actually think there is some weight to concept. At least in the sense that -some- girls treat being hit on as attempted rape.

That's right I'm talking to you melody! >:U

edited 12th Oct '12 7:56:50 AM by joeyjojo

Not in a lot of Europe, it's not.

What goes on in American prisons is considered... horrendous, even by some rather Right Wing hard-liners. However, there are an odd few who'd like to emulate it across the board. There always are some nut-jobs.

edited 12th Oct '12 8:05:04 AM by Euodiachloris

Yes, I agree that this is a considerable problem.

But, as I've mentioned several times, the issue starts with the idea that men are supposed to be the "initiators" or "aggressors" in a relationship.

We're taught that women aren't supposed to go after guys. They're supposed to be coy and flirt and the man has to be savvy enough to pick up on her meaning and play the game she wants him to play. Or, he's supposed to be brave enough to try and flirt without any signals. As such, a man who can't do these things is a loser or isn't worth her time. (Unless he has some other extremely desirable quality like wealth or fame.) Thus, every man has to constantly be on the lookout for "signals" or flirt with any woman he finds desirable to hope one finally acquiesces. This actually encourages the idea that men are supposed to be creeps.

So this means that if a woman is extremely attractive (let's say she dresses in an extremely sexual manner with tight leggings, low cut dresses, heels, or any other methods of showing off her body), this tells the man that she's interested in his attention. And if he's really a "man" he needs to initiate the game and he needs to either look for or provoke signals from her. Then, if she rejects him for any reason (including that she's already in a relationship and simply likes too look good) then he's simply a failure as a man. This leads to men hating women for being "teases" and women hating men for always trying to "get some".

edited 12th Oct '12 8:20:32 AM by KingZeal

Regardless how the public sees it, which can only help if they do, we can still reform the prison system. We can demand inquiries about how African Americans only make up 12%-16% of the population but anywhere between 70-80% of the prison population.

A white man can get off on drug charges in a lesser charge or a reduced sentence easier than a black man. We can demand equal justice.

But then again, I would love if we stopped this asinine "war" on drugs so most of our "criminals" wouldn't be actual criminals.

Not to mention (and has to be said) what considered excessively sexual aggressive or not is purely subject whether the girl in question is sexual attracted the to male or not.

edited 12th Oct '12 3:27:44 PM by joeyjojo

@Joey's article: So, it is bad to shame women for being sexually aggressive, but okay to shame men for doing the same thing. Tell me, why is that site called "Rational" Wiki?

"A white man can get off on drug charges in a lesser charge or a reduced sentence easier than a black man. We can demand equal justice."

Since this is a thread about men's issues it should be noted that men are also judged more harshly than women. Equal justice for all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

I'm pretty sure it used to deserve the name. Back when I still read it.

edited 13th Oct '12 1:14:59 AM by Kzickas

Because there full of themselves?

edited 13th Oct '12 2:33:01 AM by DeviantBraeburn

@Gabrael: I was talking basically about employment/wage parity issues, there are lots of things in other places we can do something about. I just don't think that particular issue has an easy fix.

Re: That article. Geeez. If I wanted to write a recruitment paper for misogynistic MRA groups, there you are. Couldn't do any better.

The problem with that whole topic, it's not to say that people can't be creeps (And well, I've seen people of both genders acting like creeps), but when people tend to want to define these things, they don't want to lay out concrete actions that are creepy. In short, they judge people as being creepy and not the actions that people make.

Now this is probably a natural thing, automatic in a way. At the same time, it really does turn this issue into a massive can of worms. There was actually a really good series of posts done a few weeks ago. You can find the first one at:

http://squid314.livejournal.com/327849.html

Good series.

It doesn't help that people will think a guy's creepy for having never gone out with someone before, or had sex, or kissed. Not asking people out is considered a creepy trait, thus hurting your chances of successfully asking someone out. Meanwhile, being a virgin is usually(? around here it is) considered an attractive trait - hence why deflowering a girl is something guys take pride in I guess? It depends on the person, but being a virgin and the one who is supposed to initiate relationships? Doesn't work out too well.

@deviantart: Are you refereeing to sexual aggressive men or the Rational wiki?

I could not agree more. I would care for feminist theory on creepiness if there was more emphases on clear specific social transgressions rather then subjective fuzzyheaded individual 'feelings'

Creepiness is highly contextual and hard to quantify, though. That's sort of the point. What feminists generally ask for is slightly more respect for the boundaries women choose to establish and their feelings when you violate those boundaries.

That's the big difference between creepiness and sluttiness as concepts - sluttiness is generally defined as who you are, whilst creepiness is generally defined by what you do to other people (I.e., oversharing, or ignoring personal space).

Yes, this exactly. The commonality in creepiness is "actions that make other people uncomfortable", and that can vary a lot depending on people and context.

For an example: A very touchy-feely person might like hugging people and have no problems with someone they are meeting for the first time giving them a hug: Not creepy. While someone who really likes their personal space might find getting a hug from a stranger incredibly creepy.

The most solid advice you can give is that if someone indicates what you are doing is making uncomfortable, you stop doing it.

Not really. It's actions that decide whether the term is used, but when the creep word is used it's almost always "he is creepy" not "that action was creepy". I don't see any difference between slut and creep in that respect.

Personally I agree that there men should respect set social boundaries when approaching women, I just would like to see more discussion on what those boundaries should be. Just going on about how bad women feeling 'discomfort' is, is -in my humble opinion- pandering to hang ups and neurosisis.

Have you considered that those hang- ups and neuroses might exist for a reason, though?

You might want to look into cat-calling and testimonies of experiencing it, that sort of thing. The ways in which women can get exposed to threatening and creepy behaviour on a daily basis can differ greatly from men's experiences, and so they often have very different things to be scared of.

Actually, come to think of it, since this is the men's issues thread, have any of you had any problems with cat-calling or harassment of other sorts? Any stories to share?

edited 14th Oct '12 2:57:34 AM by Iaculus

I don't contest that, it's just I have little time for bloggers who protest views that amount to 'anything I'm personally offended about by is harassment'.

I'll have to get back to you about cat calling stories. I'm sure I can think of some but.

I was.

Don't want to go into too much detail but due to anxiety issues I was a few years behind in terms of certain developmental things and I was harassed (sexually, yes) because of it, by women.

I'm sorry you experienced that. As a woman who's had more than her share of abuse and harassment from men I can only imagine how difficult and helpless a man could feel.

I hope that the matter was resolved in a way fitting to you, and my sincere apologies if it wasn't.