MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
No, the other one.
Not sure I've actually posted in this thread, despite following it for quite some time. Eh, mostly the same faces anyway.
6. Cultural bias of “women as victims” leading to the belief that men can’t be raped or abused, let alone by women.
On the other hand, at least where I live, men are sought after in daycare jobs and similar, because it's a female dominated workplace, and there are many benefits to having it more gender equal. There needs to be more work in highlighting that men, surprisingly enough, can make for very good fathers, and that it's something given a higher status.
Alimony should be determined based on the individuals' respective economical situations without regard to gender. That also ties into the above point about divorce.
edited 3rd Apr '14 11:44:05 AM by AnotherDuck
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A procrastination in of itself
Here's the problem that I have with a lot of the feminist stuff in this thread, you're assuming agency when we're actually talking about duty. Men don't have that much agency when it comes to courtship, the societal perspective is that they must go ask girl out (the shit I've gotten for not wanting to go flirt with random girls while at a club.. that's not fun shit) and that they should not dare say no, if a man does say no then they get a similar reaction to what women get, but from their own 'side' of men rather than from women. A guy who rejects a girl has pretty good odds of getting remarks like "what are you gay?" "You not man enough to handle a women?".
Now there are certainly two sides to the unfairness, women face massive oppression in the courtship situation to, but that's not because it's geared towards benefiting men, it's geared towards benefiting assertive "I wana fuck all the girls" guys and meek "I want him to do the work and win me over" girls, the secret is that the process doesn't benefit men or women, it benefits specifics subsets of men and women.
Plus I don't get why he should be talking about the women's side of the issue in a list about men's problems. The goals of a feminist movement aren't demanded to include the flip side male version of every issue.
I take it you've never encountered the belief that a man is meant to pay for the date? Cus I'm pretty sure that's a real thing and would qualify as a man being "expected to throw money at any woman they meet just because she's a woman". Now there's obviously a flip side to this that it's stupid that women are considered unable to pay for their own food, but that's a women's issue and I'm unsure as to why it should be bought up in a men's issues list (plus the modern trend seems to be that a women can say "let's just split the bill" but the guy has to offer to pay for it all himself first).
Men mostly, though certainly some women (I once encountered a bitchy girl who sat in a car stuck on a muddy hill and insisted that it was "the men's job" to get the car out, I promptly told the lot of them that the entire thing was their fault they were stuck and that I was going home). Also where do you live that all social roles are accepted for men? It sounds nice. I regularly get shit from people around me (mainly guys again) because I'm not massively assertive and always thinking with my dick, like to the point where I once had a guy come up to me at a club and have a go at me about it, plus nobody (make or female) seems willing to accept that the role of "close male friend who cares about a female friend but has no sexual interest in her" is real, apparently I must be secretly out to bang her.
You appear to be assuming that that point is only about forcing women to have/not have a baby, maybe I just read it with a more charitable mind set but to me it came across as saying that men should be granted to choice to "abort" early in a pregnancy and give up their rights and obligations as a father. And that's before you go into the very real cases (though I'm sure also very rare) of men being forced to pay child support when they did use a condom and the women then retrieved the used condom and impregnated herself with it.
The rapist part I can't answer to, but the pedo part is very real, it's a massive role of the dice for a man to go ask a lost child (especially a girl) if they are okay/need help, because there is that fear that they will be immediately tagged as trying to take the child away and abuse them.
I haven't covered all your points Tobias because I agree with you on several of them, I did actually post my own analysis of the list a page or two back.
Edit: O on the divorce thing, I'm just gonna throw my hat in with Pola on this, not only is it her field by frankly I think child custody arrangements would benefit a lot more from considering what is good for the child (and maybe even asking them what they want) than what makes either of the parents feel better.
edited 3rd Apr '14 12:50:53 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Yes Mastah, please tell me what evidence do you have for whatever that is that you keep going on about
"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
There are sensible reasons why you would want to focus on one gender. Trying to help women in an area where they are already far less affected and indeed given preferential treatment is not sensible.
This refers to the fact that girls in first world nations currently do a lot better in education than men do. Unless you want to argue that being female somehow makes you superior, this means schools are unfairly biased towards girls to some degree. "Stereotypically female styles of learning" refers to one possible explanation that schools teach in a certain way and somehow girls are more able to deal with that.
Well, first off it's good that you acknowledge to some degree that men having to be the one approaching does provide problems for them. As regards to society condemning men when they approach women, there was one woman who tried to pass for a man for a while and she also tried to get into the dating life like that (I should probably mention she's lesbian at this point, so she was interested in women anyway). She was pretty much appalled by how women treated her when she approached them. It's something she appearently had less problem with when she passed for a woman and when she revealed her true gender the women felt sorry for treating her like that.
The rest of what you say on that matter is basically you saying "but women have it worse". People really need to start learning that the issues of one gender don't negate the one's of the other.
So he's basically just saying that men are expected to throw money at any woman they meet just because she's a woman, which is just silly, really. At this point, he's anger-vomiting words at the keyboard. Like 12, this seems more personal bitterness over romantic misfortune than anything else.
Isn't this basically the old feminist argument that men shouldn't be assumed to be breadwinners and women shouldn't assumed to be housewives with a more sympathetic look on men? Unless you want to argue that women should go back in the kitchen and men out to the workplace, I don't see why you would argue against this point.
You realize that you had to had "even" infront of nerds because that was a problem for many men who fell into this category? It probably has gotten better over time but there is still a lot of socialization going on where men aren't seen as "real men" when they do or don't do certain things. You already agree on men not being able to fulfill certain roles without ridicule, so what was your complain about this point again?
There is a lot of media going around with men being portrayed in a way that would create an uproar if the genders were reversed. In Germany there was an add where a dating site was portrayed as a shop where women bought men. I can't see that not being protested with opposite roles.
Making it acceptable to show women this way would be one way to solve this, the other would be to make it as unacceptable for men.
Here you go into full strawman mode. This is not an argument that men should decide whether or not a woman gets an abortion. It's about men being able to choose to be fathers.
Even if you ignore abortion, women can legally and easily give their child away soon after birth. Men have no such choice. There have been cases of men paying child support for children not their own, male rape victims paying child support to their rapists and others. That a man refuses to want a child after consensual sex is only the most harmless case where people still want some choice over their own lifes other than choosing celibacy.
The question I ask is, what change is he trying to push for? That women no longer be taught to protect themselves? That women not carry pepper spray in their purse? If he's just saying that women should be willing to talk to and socialize with men, well, mission accomplished a LONG f*cking time ago.
His victim complex is showing here.
Strawman again. Men are often assumed to be pedophiles when they're seen with kids, which can lead to several problems such as when they try to work with children. As to rape, this can have far more serious consequences such as when a lynch mob decides to kill an assumed rapist (same can happen to assumed pedophiles).
I think I'll take a break from this thread, maybe returning with some links regarding discrimination against men in family courts. This is exhausting.
Isn't it fun that whenever this thread seem to pick up, it is always derailed into what essentially counts as Oppression Olympics and demands to justifying why it even exists, instead of the issues and how to solve them...
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Now there are certainly two sides to the unfairness, women face massive oppression in the courtship situation to, but that's not because it's geared towards benefiting men, it's geared towards benefiting assertive "I wana fuck all the girls" guys and meek "I want him to do the work and win me over" girls, the secret is that the process doesn't benefit men or women, it benefits specifics subsets of men and women.
Plus I don't get why he should be talking about the women's side of the issue in a list about men's problems. The goals of a feminist movement aren't demanded to include the flip side male version of every issue.
So which part of that is condemning men for approaching women? Because that's what he was arguing, "Societal standards which force men to approach women and then condemn them for doing so."
Your point is that society condemns men for not approaching women, and that's fair, but it's not the point this list was making.
In today's society, I've encountered a lot more women who believe that both parties should pay equally than women who believe men are obligated to throw money at them. The attitude that men have to pay for everything is one more commonly held by men. It's a domination thing; it makes the man feel powerful.
Fair enough. Guys usually do assume that if a male is at the club, he's there to hook up. The same is usually true of women, that if she's at the club, she wants your dick.
While rare, the latter is terrible, and I would say also deserves special consideration on the guy's part.
The former, however, I have to strongly disagree with because the child doesn't deserve to be punished just because the father is a dipshit who flees at the prospect of responsibility. Absentee fathers are commonplace enough as it is. As I asserted in my post, injecting semen into her womb is consenting to procreation, guys have all the ability in the world to veto that aspect of the sex. If you choose to shoot off inside of her, you accept the responsibility. If you never made such a choice, you deserve more leeway.
That part, I do agree with. I posted a quote from Dan le Sac earlier that's also applicable here. "Thou shalt not think that any man over the age of 30 who plays with a child not his own is a pedophile; some people are just nice."
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So, by this logic, we shouldn't help male rape victims, then?
Queen of Good Things, Honest
So girls are doing well, nobody's sure why, so systematic prejudice against the male gender is just assumed? I was right, this complaint is silly and misogynistic.
The rest of what you say on that matter is basically you saying "but women have it worse". People really need to start learning that the issues of one gender don't negate the one's of the other.
I'm more saying that this isn't really that much of an issue at all. If the worst problems in your life is that you feel bad because a woman shot you down, you lead an enviable life. The issue itself negates it being an issue, and is more akin to someone who has never felt pain before complaining that a paper cut is the worst agony he's ever experienced.
I conceded above that the pressure men faced from other men for not approaching women is an issue, but seriously, "I got my feelings hurt because I asked her out and she said no!" is hardly a serious societal issue oppressing men. And how do you propose to fix it? Make women say yes more frequently?
I'm arguing more against the notion that the expectation of men to throw money at any woman they meet exists rather than that it's bad.
Making it acceptable to show women this way would be one way to solve this, the other would be to make it as unacceptable for men.
There would be an uproar over the depiction of men buying women? Actually, you're right, there probably would because it cuts too close to the issue of sex slavery - not the BDSM kind - which is alive and well today even in First-World countries; there are several illegal brothels that use Asian women trafficked into the country to be used as sex workers right here in my city, and probably in yours too.
Then again, the concept of men owning women also gets romanticized in such stories as Fifty Shades of Grey, so maybe not.
Even if you ignore abortion, women can legally and easily give their child away soon after birth. Men have no such choice. There have been cases of men paying child support for children not their own, male rape victims paying child support to their rapists and others. That a man refuses to want a child after consensual sex is only the most harmless case where people still want some choice over their own lifes other than choosing celibacy.
"Easily" my ass, my household has been through the adoption process, and it is a nightmare.
Like I said above, if the man did not choose to inject semen into the woman's womb, then I can support letting him opt out, but when you make that choice, you consent to procreation. Go ahead and apply that to any nightmare scenario you can come up with where the man was prevented from making a choice on the matter.
How often do lynch mobs actually happen?
edited 3rd Apr '14 12:41:14 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
No, the other one.
So if a man was drunk when he had sex, he can opt out of fatherhood resulting from it?
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Not to nitpick, but if this
is even close to correct, that's not much of a justification for different reactions.
Any man can opt out of paternity by going to their circuit court office and following the procedure directed by their county.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
A procrastination in of itself
That's true, I was focusing on first part of the point and not the second, which I'll agree seems to be an issue that is rare if existent.
But you have encountered the type of women who believe that men are obliged to throw money after them? I'll agree that it's a declining problem and one that probably doesn't need to be high up the priority list, but I think it's still a problem.
This happens beyond the clubbing enviroment to though, the amount of trouble I have explaining to people that I have female friends who I don't want to bang is insane, the "good friend who is just that, a good friend" role is one that it's very hard for people to believe a man can fulfil fr a women. Though this may be a problem largely concentrated amongst the younger end of the population (at least I sure hope so...)
I kidan get your point, but it's still one I'm uncomfortable with, mainly because it gets very bad when you swap the sexes round. Does this not make you go "woo nelly!" "Letting him inject semen into her womb is consenting to procreation, girls have all the ability in the world to veto that aspect of sex. If you choose to let him shoot off inside of you, you accept the responsibility."?
That's the kind of sentence that tends to cause a hell of a mess, but you're throwing a male version of it around without issue. Do you see my problem?
Though there is one difference, and that's the care of the kid, if a women aborts than there isn't going to be a child that suffers due to a lack of one parent, while if a man 'aborts' there's still gonna end up being a kid lacking a parent somewhere. Though I'm curious as to your stance on absent mothers, where they either utilise things like the ability to leave a baby at a hospital no questions asked, or mothers who do simply run away and leave the kid with the dad.
Than we're all good on that point. 
Anyone mind if I just take a moment to enjoy the fact that my plothole is now being used by people other than me? *basks in imaginary glory*
I'm good now.
Edit: ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Is that a national thing? Are men actually made aware of the fact that they have that option? Because that's exactly the kind of solution that works perfectly.
edited 3rd Apr '14 1:16:31 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Federal law permits any parent to sign over their rights. How else do you think parents follow the drop offs and what not?
Now different states have different requirements such as waiting periods, mandatory counselling, fines used to set up costs for the child's care, etc. For example Arkansas allows a parent to sign over the rights at any age, but if the child is under 16 the judge can order a lump sum restitution payment on top of all the legal fees and what not. Illinois has a waiting period of 30 days and mandatory counselling. Texas is pretty instant, so is California.
If men don't know then they should care enough to find out. It's not really advertised because no one really wants parents to take that option. But it's not like it's a state secret either.
edited 3rd Apr '14 1:29:41 PM by Polarstern
"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
Yep. Polar is correct.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
I've mostly run into problems from my guy friends wondering why I bother hanging out with attractive girls if I'm not trying to get in their pants. I think part of it comes from different cultures. In low income, low education neighborhoods, the gender binary seems to be very strong.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
I have a surprising number of prostitutes in my social circle, so I've seen the non-business side of it from a few different angles, and one of those is that I have seen women who feel entitled to men buying them things; they're usually the type to go for more of a Sugar Daddy angle than become a prostitute, and tend to be ostracized by both men and women alike. I've also known a couple hookers who will give men discounts if they buy dinner.
But on the topic of actual dates that don't involve the exchange of money for a service rendered, the women I've met usually insist on paying their half, and feel downright offended if a man insists on not letting them. Trying to control the finances on the first date is a major turn-off in today's society.
That does get better from the male end as you get older, but worse from the female end; women become less and less inclined to think that a man can be a platonic friend for them after spending a decade or two being constantly disappointed, so guys like you wind up paying for other men's mistakes in a sort of, "This is why we can't have nice things!" way. The dipshits ruin it for everyone. My best friend actually recently came up to me and thanked me for showing her that men can change if they're doing it for the right reasons.
That's the kind of sentence that tends to cause a hell of a mess, but you're throwing a male version of it around without issue. Do you see my problem?
My stance is that men control their semen when it's in their body. Once the child is growing in her womb, it's her body, her womb. Letting men have the choice to make her abort the child is like giving women the choice to kill their babies once they've been born; it's not part of your body anymore, it's part of hers, and so now the choice is hers. Women who want to abort have to do so LONG before the child leaves their body naturally.
It may be his sperm that went into making the kid, but it's not his womb that's carrying it to term.
I've never actually heard of a mother running away and leaving the kid with its dad. I'm sure it happens, but it seems tremendously rare. It's a lot harder to do, because women have to carry the child to term, while men can cut and run at any point in the pregnancy. Usually, if a woman wants to get rid of a child, she'll put it up for adoption or foster care, leaving it with people who are supposed to take care of it. As you noted, the ability to leave the baby at the hospital is one of these.
One woman I know actually faced massive opposition when trying to put a child up for adoption - this is part of the "nightmare" I mentioned earlier - wherein she needed the father to sign off on the adoption papers, but he refused to even acknowledge the kid was his, and after screaming at her over the phone and demanding that she abort the child immediately, and calling her "whore" and other harsh things for her unwillingness to, he changed his number and moved, and that was the last we heard of him. All she wanted was for him to sign a paper saying he was the father, so she could start the adoption process for when the baby went to term.
I'm good now.
It's a good one. Sincerity Mode serves a similar purpose, but seems more useful for making assertions than asking questions.
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A procrastination in of itself
Well than that's that then, as far as I'm concerned number 17 on the list is solved, at least legally.
I gave a grand total of two IRL guy friends and one of them is gay, so I don't tend to get much input from guy friends. You may actually be right about it being a class thing, the two people who've had the biggest problem have both been working class. Though it might just be a jealousy/insecurity issue to be honest, seeing as the big offenders would be my ex and my (female) best friend's boyfriend. Considering that my best friend and I have know each other for almost 7 years, living together at boarding school for 3 years and she has credited me with saving her life, it must be a pretty intimidating friendship to look at from the outside.
Maybe it's not an issue at all then, can I ask others in the thread for input on this? Do you guys often see the idea that a man should pay for everything in a date? Or at least be ready to if the women doesn't say "let's go half and half".
I've never actually had a problem with a girl thinking I'm crushing on her when I'm not (well okay, there was the one time when my at the time best friend thought I was hitting on her, btu she was just freaking out because she was starting to realise that she was gay), it's always been outside people assuming that I just must be out to bang my female best friend, when I have no desire to do so.
I'd just like to point out that I've certainly not been advocating this and I don't think anyone else had (*prepares for some MRA person to say that they want this*), the mere idea of forcing abortion never entered my mind, it's a horrible idea.
That's true, it's much easier for a guy to cut and run.
Thanks.
Well, since you asked, I have had trouble where whenever I associate myself with women, i get asked "So are you dating" and if I insist "No, we are friends"... nobody beliefs me. Instead, even after an year of saying "No, we are friends" people are still asking are we dating. Yes, this includes other women I know. I would they the most vocal ones were the women I know.
Though can't say that is a very good sample size, I do not tend to have "associates". Only close friends, which is a very small group.
And yes, I have been told, numerous times, to be ready to play for dates. Never really dated, but I have always offered to pay when meeting in cafe or somewhere else. Though that is usually only if I call her somewhere, otherwise we tend to pay only our own drinks and stuff.
EDIT
As far as I know, nobody has advocated giving the fathers right to force the abortion. Only right to not to be fathers (in legal sense, not in biological sense).
Of course, this should only apply to cases where both had consented sex and both were aware of what was happening. So if both were aware and consented to unprotected sex, the father should have equal right to not to be a father, just like mother has right to abortion.
Rape is another case entirely. In those cases, rapist opinion does not matter (note I said rapist, not fathers).
edited 3rd Apr '14 3:24:26 PM by Mandemo
It would depend. What would be the equivalent with male rape victims? Maybe a better support structure. Or other measures that lessen the trauma.
Do male rape victims have a better support structure? More places to go for counseling, or just a more supportive environment that recognizes their pain and helps them to recover?
Norah Vincent? It is an interesting read.
edited 3rd Apr '14 4:15:26 PM by blauregen
All I know is, my gut says maybe.
I'm not seeing what argument you're making in that first part.
Maybe I misunderstood. Let's see. The initial point of contention arose from the 'shut down of women's prison'-subtopic and Mastah complained:
So we have two classes seperated by sex. While both have problems, one is comparatively privileged, because judges are usually more lenient towards members of this class. Your position now was:
Mastah countered:
and you,probably to clarify asked:
Now I wondered what could be an equivalent relative privilege for the class of male rape victims, compared to female rape victims, that could motivate you to focus your efforts on female rape victims and neglect male rape victims. I assumed that anything that would result in lesser trauma and faster recovery would do, and asked whether in your opinion this privilege for male rape victims exists. Or to extend the question, whether male rape victims are in any other way privileged over female rape victims.
edited 3rd Apr '14 4:46:54 PM by blauregen
All I know is, my gut says maybe.
Privileged by the logic that they are greatly fewer in number, like 10 times less by numbers that Iaculus provided. According to Mastah, focusing on one group makes sense when that group is affected disproportionately. If that's the case, then I'm asking if providing for female rape victims (which are higher in number) over male victims makes sense.
Even if you argue that male victims receive less care than female victims, female victims are such an overwhelming majority that they still don't receive adequate care. And that's just US statistics and doesn't include places like India where female victims supposedly outnumber men 50 to 1.
Depending on your definition of rape and statistic, yes :)
Ok, our criterium is number of people affected and I assume the proposed measures are helpful for the affected persons.So back to the initial point. Are there more male or more female people who would be affected by them?
edited 3rd Apr '14 5:03:41 PM by blauregen
All I know is, my gut says maybe.
Prove it.
"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur