Sexism

In general suport of abortion run on the idea if you think the fetus have and actually fully form personhood before being born and it a moral duty to make it happen, consequences be dammed.

Is one of those issue that while misoginy is invold, there is also a strong moralisty compound that cant be ignore.

So, I would be surprised if people in this thread are not encountering women who think an abortion is killing a person. It seems to me that often young women (not just older women) have either spiritual or conservative beliefs that lead them to believe abortion kills a person and is immoral.

I do not believe in souls and so on, but according to census data my city has relatively high religiosity for my country, so maybe that is why it seems not uncommon.

I don't think that's connected with my post?

Edited by editerguy on Mar 15th 2024 at 3:39:21 AM

I'm fairly sure some of the people in this thread are women.

Admittedly, up until fairly recently I did think that abortion was murder.

Then I realized that, as I said earlier in this thread, the one who bears the most physical and psychological burden is, y'know, the mother.

It's actually one of the reasons I wholeheartedly think female anatomy should be taught more in details in school (if you live in an education destrict that do, good on you!).

After all, pregnancy and birthing can be an utterly painful ordeal. It's no surprise that after the overturn of Roe v. Wade, there have been a noticable increase of maternal deaths in US.

Of course, everyone knows American Republicans don't actually care about babies.

I simply think that abortion in general does not actually kill anyone. Otherwise I broadly agree.

I have argued my opinion against men and women who strongly disagree, for whatever reason.

Good luck with that, given some parents still view the studying of female anatomy as taboo.

To be honest, I think that immediately goes into the whole debate of "what counts as a life". And I admit that I don't have neither legal, biological, and philosophical depth to discuss it with confidence.

Of course, I just avoid that aspect altogether anyway. After all, unlike the definition of personhood, there's no argument on the fact that women's bodily autonomy should be respected and guaranteed.

...Unless you're American conservatives and fascists (or am I just repeating myself), that is.

I always thought abortion was bad if it didn’t risk the well-being of the mother or baby in any way. And yes, I did have a conservative upbringing.

I think that infanticide discussion's stepping into dangerous territory, probably best to not continue it.

Not to mention not exactly on topic.

While still on the topic of gynecological autonomy, I don't understand why certain people think that so-called "forced death" (unwanted abortion) is at all a pro-choice value.

Patient's Body. Patient's Choice.

Whether that choice means getting legitimate lifesaving medical treatment, or—for some stupid reason—willfully choosing to endure childbirth despite being warned in advance that injury or death of the patient or fetus is certain, it's not my body, not my business, and not my problem, as long as it's their choice.

On a separate (but similar) note, it's one thing to be a homemaker, careerist, or both. It's another thing entirely to try and rob others of that choice. Which is why I don't understand why "choice feminism" is a disparaging term. I'm a dude. I will not be told to stay out of the kitchen or any job I am qualified for by anybody of any gender (*Cough* Andrew Tate *Cough*).

Regardless of what gender you are, you should not be letting other people determine what household tasks or jobs you are or aren't qualified to carry out if you have the skills or credentials. Different people can put the effort into acquiring different skills.

That said, it's unfair to yourself not to learn at least some survival skills, regardless of gender.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 18th 2024 at 11:58:23 AM

I used to be tentatively pro-choice but I did feel it was a complicated topic. Then one day I realized it actually isn't that complicated and became much more firmly pro-choice.

For me, the thing that upended my worldview on it was when I realized that bodily autonomy as applied in law universally favors the individual. If a three-year-old child needs a kidney transplant or they'll die, the law cannot be used to coerce me into giving them my kidney. Regardless of what an individual person might think the moral decision is, I cannot be required to donate any part of my body for the life and wellbeing of another person.

Doesn't matter that I'm over 30 and they're a child. I have full legal rights to my body. Under no circumstances can the law ever take any part of my body for another human being. Ever. Period. This is how bodily autonomy is applied in all situations, at least under U.S. law.

Except abortion.

People go back and forth on the, "Okay, but you're killing someone." "Okay, but are you really killing someone? At what point does a fetus qualify as a person?" question all the time.

But. Like. It doesn't actually matter. If a person will die without access to a part of your body, the law says "Tough shit; My body, my rules" in all other situations. Why should abortion be any different?

I just always thought that the death of babies=bad, which I realize is incredibly black and white and kind of naive, and the whole topic is conflicting.

Edited by J99908 on Mar 18th 2024 at 4:00:20 AM

As commonly gets pointed out, you have to opt in to organ donation in the event of a fatal accident, and failing to honor that choice can be considered desecration of a corpse. Even a corpse has bodily autonomy, even if its organs could be used to save multiple lives, but a living human woman gets less right to decide what's done with her body.

Well, I believe organ donation should be mandatory, even if the person didn't want to donate their organs when they were alive, but that's not the topic's subject here.🤷‍♂️

Outside of places like the PRC where organ harvesting is done as part of ethnic cleansing I believe the most extreme situation you get with organ donation is people having to opt-out and getting put at the bottom of the priority order for an organ transplant if they do.

The abortion equivalent would be something like getting low priority for adoption if you decide to have an abortion. Which while weird is much less extreme then the position taken by the anti-choice crowd in the US. Their position is equivalent to not just mandating organ donation but mandating it even if the organ won’t help the receiver, like donating a lung to someone who has also lost their heart and is about to die.

Edited by Silasw on Mar 19th 2024 at 6:47:04 PM

I cannot believe I am typing this down, but:

The UN has chosen Saudi Arabia to chair the world body's Commission on freaking Women's Rights!

https://www.dw.com/en/outrage-as-saudi-arabia-picked-to-head-womens-rights-forum/a-68688738

The place where less than ten years ago women couldn’t vote. Yes, this makes sense.

Also the place where they couldn't drive until six years ago.

Uh, how?

Simple, women were forbidden from driving at all. And many Muslim women did drive outside Saudi Arabia, and can drive inside now, the ban was there because misogyny.

To clarify, I'm asking how Saudi Arabia got chosen to chair women's rights.

The UN was stupid again or something.

I really really REALLY hope this was an insentive to promote womans rights in that region and lift some of the bans and injustices still remaining. I doubt it though.