Sexism

people are trying to break down gender roles because they find them harmful in various ways.

there's nothing wrong with a man being a provider or a woman choosing to be a stay-at-home mother, if that was a choice they made on their own.

The idea here is that everyone should be able to choose their own path in life without being stigmatized.

and yes, traditional ideas about masculinity absolutely can and DO harm men regularly. there's kind of no question about this really.

For things as simple as "men are providers," it's not that the roles exist but that they are strictly enforced that is the problem.

For other elements like

• Real Men use violence to defend the honor of themselves, their family, and/or their woman even from things as simple as a verbal insult.
• Real Men never see a doctor.
• Real Men don't take no for an answer.

etc., even the value itself is problematic. That these values are also strictly enforced just makes it worse.

edited 30th Aug '15 9:48:10 AM by TobiasDrake

While this is all true I sometimes get the impression that people think the existence of the patriarchy means it's okay to not be concerned by issues faced by men. Natalie Dormer(I think it was her) was asked recently if men suffer from sexism in any ways. She said yes and gave some examples of toxic masculinity. However, I then saw people objecting to her statements by saying sexist gender roles and attitudes towards men are created by other men instead of women. That's a true statement but the way it was worded implied these issues aren't as important because men are doing it to themselves.

yeah it's a thing that happens.

personally i think it's just dumb. "patriarchy" benefits men as a whole, but in particular it caters to a specific idea of "man", and people who don't fit that suffer. a person who suffers is a person who suffers. that's empathy 101.

Oh yeah these issues are really important to men. Anyone who denies that is an idiot.

But they're caused by other men, women have little if anything to do with it.

I get that. I'm not denying that men are the primary perpetrators although some women are guilty of this as well. I just get a bit concerned when people say things like that. It comes off as victim blaming because it sounds like people are saying "Men did this to themselves so their issues aren't real sexism." Shit like this is why we need a mainstream men's movement that tries to fix this stuff instead of just blaming the evil feminists.

I don't really think it matters.

What matters is that these are issues that need to be solved.

You're lucky if you even have that.

edited 30th Aug '15 10:12:13 AM by Greenmantle

Yep, all the men's movements so far are entirely too toxic and based in misogyny.

It's why I stick with the feminists.

Indeed. It's a false parallel. Much of our societal oppression of women is systematic; it can only be solved by the people in power, and most of those people are men. That so few women exist in a position of power is, in fact, part of the oppression. Thus, systematic women's issues must be solved by men, up to and including allowing women a fair opportunity to sit in the seat of power in the first place.

Male advocates often make the mistake of assuming the same is true of men's issues: that they can only be solved by the women in positions of power. However, most of our societal oppression of men is social, not systematic. The law already says that if you beat up someone for calling you a dog-f*cker, you go to jail. It's the attitudes of the men and women around that man, judging him as less of a man for not engaging in the violence, that need to change.

edited 30th Aug '15 10:15:46 AM by TobiasDrake

There are a few small organizations but there's no real banner that can be rallied under. The MRA movement has thoroughly destroyed its image and I don't really see any other alternatives. That's a significant problem.

edited 30th Aug '15 10:16:24 AM by Kostya

~@Tropers/Silasw: I think it's time for you to link to that post again.

edited 30th Aug '15 10:19:57 AM by SaintDeltora

~@Tropers/Silasw

Since first time didn't work.

Fuck, gonna write a PM.

edited 30th Aug '15 10:20:55 AM by SaintDeltora

Found it.

Most of you who want an organization who does good on their promise to deal with men's issues can start there.

As far as I know it isn't just because of other men that male teachers and educators aren't being hired.

On the music conservatoire my mother works is overwhelmingly staffed by women, including the direction and the administration, there isn't a lack of male teachers applying either, most for drums and guitar lessons, but since there is a lot of children there is a lot of suspicious towards male teachers. There are a lot of women who think that men who want to work with children are closet pedophiles.

On the basic education field, women are outnumbering men, including in the power positions and still they show the same bias towards men based on harmful gender stereotypes, specially towards sex and lack of compassion stereotypes.

Women in powerful positions still aren't free from applying sexist behaviour as much as men in power are, even towards men and women.

Sorry was with family, I'd actually lost that link so wouldn't have been able to post it, however I've now got it bookmarker for future use.

But yeah there's a list of good Men's Issues groups, Men's Rights has been tainted as an idea (though I still find it a bit odd that men are told to abandon the idea of the phrase "Men's Rights" because it's been tainted, yet so many other groups are encouraged to reclaim words that were tainted by a vocal minority) so generally "Men's Issues" is used instead for the good groups, it's an easy way to differentiate the groups.

A lot of women, however, DO perpetuate "toxic" masculinity. And sadly, they frequently don't seem to realize what their doing, or don't care that they ARE doing it. I've heard mothers tell their little boys that "boys don't cry," I've heard grown women say they wouldn't date a man who made less money then them, or who seem to feel that if a man isn't an utter horndog he's either gay or asexual. It's not the problem of men alone, it's a societal problem, and society includes women. I read an article (by a woman) once where she said that women say they want men to be sensitive and emotionally honest, and then react with disgust when they are. She described it as "telling men to come out of a cage that we helped to put them in, all the while standing in front of the door and not letting them out."

edited 30th Aug '15 12:45:43 PM by Robbery

I think the difference is that MRA was a term chosen by a group to define themselves.

Most reclaimed terms were initially degratory terms coined outside of the group.

People interested in helping men who aren't terrible can't really reclaim "MRA" because it never really referred to them in the first place.

Not to mention how radical feminism has sprung out of Third Wave Feminism very rapidly too. There's such a thing as toxic femininity too.

Misandry, "kill all men", "die cis scum", scenarios like that one University girl banning all White males from her public events.

It's debatable whether or not TWF has become purely radical itself, but it's undeniable that radical feminism has become far more vocal and far more ludicrous since the 90s, and particularly after 2010. The rise of social media gave a broad new avenue and echo chamber to the radical feminists who believe all men are evil, the patriarchy is eternally oppressing them, rape culture is perpetuated by all men, and that women are superior to men. Misandry is as terrible as misogyny. Not to mention said radical feminists tend to bleed over into highly racist views, such as demonizing all Whites or again saying "kill all white men", blaming Whites for all problems in the West and condemning you a racist if you don't perpetuate hateful self-loathing over your skin color.

Very few Male Movements exist, though, and even then very few seem to try to fight toxic femininity and misandry. Even MGTOW, the most prominent, simply suggests backing away from women altogether rather than fixing the fundamental societal problem of misandry perpetuated by radical feminists that have begun to completely overshadow nonradical feminists in recent years, due in part to social media.

edited 30th Aug '15 1:29:59 PM by Jenaiqueserasera

You talk like these people are relevant or have any sort of political or social traction.

Or are even great in number.

Have you been on major social media sites in the last 5 years, or watched the news or "teen" television stations?

Radical, misandrist, racist feminists have a huge amount of social traction. Whether or not they're the vocal minority or not, they get loads of attention from all aspects of Western society, particularly Liberals.

It's why tens of thousands of users on sites like Tumblr truly believe there's some sort of white-supremacist-rapist-patriarchy constantly looming over them and that the only answer to it is to either destroy, demonize, or subjugate all males in some sort of femsupremacist dystopia.

edited 30th Aug '15 1:34:25 PM by Jenaiqueserasera

Yes I have, and no they don't have any traction.

The only people who talk about them are the fiercely reactionary misogynist types.

They use these few as proof the entire movement is bunk and will destroy society or something.

I'm not sure who you've been watching, but there are plenty of non-misogynistic men and women alike who attack radical feminism and admit it's a widespread issue.

This man in particular gives some amazing insight onto the problems of radical feminism while remaining an egalitarian. He also points out here just how much traction radical feminists are getting.

edited 30th Aug '15 1:36:29 PM by Jenaiqueserasera

I've yet to meet anyone who met that definition. Can you provide any examples? to hell and back.

What are the Twitter posts in question? I'd like to see them. This, if the video is not lying or misleading, is tragic and outrageous.

edited 30th Aug '15 1:41:12 PM by TheHandle

Tumblr and Twitter are terrible places to look for feminist views that make sense.

I'd rather leave them on their circle jerk echo chamber and pay attention to feminist scholars who are sensible about the issue.