Rise of Moe in Japanese Media (Anime included)

I'm not sure if this belongs to the Trope Talk, but since this is about Japanese media...

I've lately witnessed on how many people overpraise characters who are young and moe, preferably with flat chest, and less so for those who has a mature charm and well-developed body (derisively calling them old hags or something). So I'd like to ask you guys here...

• What makes people overly appealed to young/flat chested/Moe characters and caused them to increase in numbers greatly? How?
• On the other hand, how did mature, well-developed women lose their charm?
• Is my observation wrong?

Thanks.

Attractive girls appeal to a large portion of the teenage male population who are interested in such things. It sells.

And women who are mature aren't attractive? And have no market?

edited 29th May '12 7:59:22 PM by ChrisX

Typically, most series tend to cater to both factions of fandom. You'll notice almost every anime has the Token Flat Chested Girls and the Token Impossibly Busty Girls.

Yeah, it's closer to the shotgun approach to fetish pandering.

But it seems like from my observation, the "Token Flat Chested Girls" are attracting a bigger fanbase and probably attracting more official merchandises and more likely to be the heroine of the story while the Token Impossibly Busty Girls has smaller fanbase, less official merchandises and less likely to be heroines...

The logic behind this is...?

And in regards of fetish pandering, why do they pander to the flat chest lovers while the busty lovers are less than likely to be pandered? Is it because there are more flat chest lovers than busty lovers?

edited 29th May '12 8:20:40 PM by ChrisX

Japanese women tend to be fairly small breasted, so it's obvious the Japanese men will tend to feel more affinity and appeal for that type of body figure, being what they are the most used to. There are fetishes for everything, so the 'exotic' busty types also keep popping up, but for the most part, it's not that shocking the 'girls next door', traditional Yamato Nadeshiko and easily identifiable female leads tend to be more on the faltter side.

edited 29th May '12 8:25:16 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Seems you don't know what the "shotgun approach" is. It means rather than aiming at a target you just shoot everywhere so that something hits. Large breasts have not and never will go out of style.

edited 29th May '12 8:46:14 PM by Clarste

I see. My mistake.

But I still don't get what you meant 'Large breasts haven't and never will go out in style' when nearly the majority of things are more favoring those with moe face rather than the ones who are not. Especially when it comes to 'Large breasts are only accepted when they're combined with Moe'.

These days, large breasts seems to be only accepted and able to gain popularity IF they are combined with moe. Without moe, they just fizzle and end up as subject of ridiculing words like "Old Hag", etc. Or maybe again, I got the wrong impression.

edited 29th May '12 8:51:05 PM by ChrisX

Depends on your definition of moe. If you take a broad interpretation, pretty much every girl in anime is moe.

There are plenty of big chested girls in anime nowadays.

I sincerely doubt that anyone has ever seriously called a character an "Old Hag" for having breasts. Sounds to me like you're just taking jokes too seriously.

I know there are plenty of big chested girl. But what I'm looking for is... big chested WOMAN (not quite girl, but more mature) who are actually popular. More popular than her flat-chested companions.

Well, most anime is aimed at teenagers, so most characters are teenagers, and therefore most female characters are teenagers. You could say the same about men, in a lot of cases.

As for relative popularity... something like Erza from Fairy Tail? Which is incidentally a very fanservice heavy series. And just glancing at Shounen Jump reveals most female leads to have large breasts. Medaka Box, One Piece, etc. It's basically the standard.

Shoujo series tend to star an "ordinary" girl with an "ordinary" figure, and you have to delve deep into otaku pandering to get anywhere near appreciation for flat-chests.

edited 29th May '12 8:58:50 PM by Clarste

^^ & ^ Basically. Read my first post in the thread.

you sound like this is new in japan?

Why do I feel like all I hear everywhere I go is flat-chested appreciations whereas people with big breast appreciations just shuts up...

Because you visit very creepy places? Even if the positions were reversed I'd avoid places that talk that.

edited 29th May '12 9:25:36 PM by Clarste

Examples of places where anime/manga/VG big boobs are more praised than flat chests?

edited 29th May '12 10:44:30 PM by ChrisX

I don't get how this conversation went to boobs when the thread title is about moe. You want a big-boobed moe character? Mikuru Asahina. It seems like your definition of moe is pretty skewed.

edited 29th May '12 11:38:43 PM by LiberatedLiberater

There's also Orihime Inoue and Hinata Hyuga as far as big-breasted moe characters go.*

edited 30th May '12 12:18:49 AM by CrimsonFlameKnight

Mikuru IS Moe as well as big boobed. Not the type of character I'm looking for to make my point. What I'm looking for would be characters who ARE big boobed, but has a more mature look, less moe/cute traits, but STILL as popular as those with moe traits.

So I was asking if those who lacks moe can be popular, or they are doomed to stay unloved, trampled with those who likes moe stuffs. I would point out an example... but I think that it will risk something bigger. So I'm gonna say for example...

The majority of characters voiced by Yuu Asakawa, for example.

Or Signum, whose main draw would be her Badassery and hotness rather than possible moe qualities that can be seen on Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, etc...

edited 30th May '12 12:27:56 AM by ChrisX

Well in that case, there's Anko from Naruto, Rider from Fate Stay Night (At least I think she qualifies as a big-boobed character), Chikane from Kannazuki No Miko (she's a Base Breaker, but she still has her fans), Nami from One Piece, Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo, Mami from Puella Magi Madoka Magica, and I'm pretty sure Negima has at least one popular big-breasted character.

Some good answers, though I'd disqualify Mami since she IS also moe.

Now look at those women. Then look at other girls in their series that are more moe. Are they more popular than them, or they were not?

edited 30th May '12 1:32:06 AM by ChrisX

That kind of comparison won't really work since a lot of factors affect popularity.

One Piece, for example, only has Shirahoshi for a moe character, and she probably has fewer fans than Nami and Robin simply because of the difference in screentime.

And in Negima, you have people like Setsuna and Nodoka, who have their "moe" and "cool"/"mature" moments. So then are they popular because they're moe or are they popular because they're badass? (It's most likely both)

And Anko is a minor character. Again, difference in screen time.

First of all, "moe" is just a japanese slang that pretty much means "appeal". Anything that the viewer finds attractive and fascinating. It can be used for things like mecha designs, cathartic scenes, etc. In a stricter usage, it can be used for sexual fetishes: glasses-moe, big-breast-moe, flat-chest-moe, yaoi-moe, tsundere-moe, housewife-moe, guro-moe.

The overall "mainstream" moe concept, is basically "things that the average Japanese person normally finds attractive".

Asking "why all the attractive anime girls are moe" is basically a tautology, it's like asking "why all cartoons made in Japan are anime", or "why all the Japanese lesbian romance stories are Yuri".

If you mean to ask what I think you mean to ask; why are the Japanese standards of sexual appeal so much more likely to be associated with certain themes than western ones, then the answer is more complicated than just "because they are ephebophiles".

To begin with, it's about much more than just sexualized teenage girls. Japan is generally all about cuteness and youth, to the extent that it defines their mainstream concept of attractiveness. It's been going on for long before the phrase "moe" appeared in otaku circles, or even before the otakudom existed. Not just with shows to young men about girls, but generally in every content type, an appreciation of innocence, and cuteness is the standard.

For example, remember that most male-oriented anime also has a teenager male protagonist. And not just the shonen series, where the kids might be identifying with him, but also the seinen series, where adults are still supposed to be identifying with him. Even in josei series, (that are stereotypically known as "mature" due to noitaminA's projected image), there is a disproportionate amount of high-school-based stories like Chihayafuru or Sakamichi No Apollon, compared to other cultures' adult-woman-oriented media.

Basically, the only stories that aren't trying to be cute at all, are mostly the ones that's characters aren't trying to be attractive at all, either, such as intentionally off-putting social commentaries, GAR action shows, or surreal comedies, where you are not supposed to like the characters.

edited 30th May '12 3:01:00 AM by Ever9