Telling People to "Man Up"

I like your artwork. And your thinking. Keep them up.

Also, yes, a lot of things are subjective, but I don't think it allows someone to say "X is immature" because it is not something objective, inherent to every human being, but a quite fickle social construct (in this age this concept of maturity is in part enforced by those people telling others to "tough it out" and not an universal truth).

I remember that Philippe Ariès' L'Enfant et la vie familiale sous l'Ancien Régime and Margaret Mead's Coming of Age in Samoa are related to this issue.

Why?.

This is nice.

edited 6th May '12 11:03:42 AM by Anfauglith

Because concentrating on your angst won't give you or anyone else contentment? And if there's a follow-up question about why contentment is good, I think I will throw up my hands and accept that you're arguing from another plane.

Heheh. Well you are looking at this in an extremely cold way (unfit for sentiment-related stuff)... my personal opinion is that you can't always be in an endless pragmatic search for happiness because it doesn't work that way. There's no "concentrating on your angst"...there's just angst. And this angst is not the cause of the lack of contentment...the cause is whatever thing happened that made you feel angst, and people should not be ashamed of not feeling well, no matter the cause. There's a time the person should confront the problems, yes, but this isn't accomplished by dismissing the negative feelings but by accepting/embracing them and eventually overcoming them (maybe with help from others, but like I said "tough it out" is not help). This overcoming is all about coming to terms with whatever caused the angst, not by "manning up" and ignoring it.

edited 6th May '12 11:32:39 AM by Anfauglith

Then again there's also the fact that people do not wear their emotions on their sleeve.

You may tell someone to "man up" and they stop talking about it, and you may think you've helped, when really all you've done is made that person decide that they cannot tell you anything.

Manning up is not ignoring it - that seems to be fallacy numero uno in these discussions - but looking for a constructive way to deal with it. If your dad died, try to be the sort of person he'd be proud of.

EDIT: I guess that's sublimation rather than repression, isn't it?

edited 6th May '12 11:44:59 AM by DomaDoma

"Manning up" "toughing it out", etc. are basically "do not whine or complain, be strong and fix it yourself". Which in my opinion is abominable because angst isn't a weakness nor something to be ashamed of.

I think that saying that those phrases are not encouraging ignoring or dismissing the angst is the fallacy. Why? because if someone is un-well enough to tell you about it, and you say one of those phrases, then you are reproaching both his feelings and the fact that he/she spoke about them. Plus not everyone that says those phrases mean what you mean. Example: the OP:

That post is also full of things like the concept of productivity, the belief that you can judge if people deserve or not to feel bad depending on the causes...

I don't want to sound too offensive myself, but this makes me want to puke. Especially after seeing how widespread this opinion is. I can't help but think Humans Are Bastards, even if I know I'm being unfair to other people with better and brighter ideas.

edited 6th May '12 12:08:24 PM by Anfauglith

I'd agree with every part of that except the "fix it yourself" part. There is a difference between talking to people about your problems and whining. And in the OP I showed three examples of things that are whining. If you have a real problem and you need help with it, talking to people about it and saying, "Hey, I've always been shy ever since the time that X happened and I'm looking for a way to get past it," I don't have that reaction. In fact, I think this person is way cooler than the guy who tries to sort out all of his problems on his own just for a sense of masculinity, and fails and winds up having a million issues.

If you say, "I'm not good enough because..." then I get the same reaction that you had to me - I want to puke. Might just be allergies.

Also, let me fix that quote for you:

In that last, almost insignificant, sentence I acknowledge that this reaction is not a particularly useful one if one's goals are helping people to get past things and better themselves.

edited 6th May '12 12:13:54 PM by Vericrat

I usually follow "man up" with an explanation and some support, unless I know that they are just doing idle complaining the way all soldiers do. When I go "Fuck I hate this shit, this shift is taking forever."

That's idle complaining, because nothing can change it, and no words of support beyond a shrug can do much.

"Man Up" from me without an explanation usually means there's a time constraint and we don't have time to discuss the issue. It's essentially a boot in the ass to get someone going those extra steps.

It can also mean "Shut up and deal with it later on. We don't have time right now."

edited 6th May '12 12:22:42 PM by Barkey

Anf's got the basic translation of those phrases down. That's what it comes out as in the vast majority of cases where I've heard it being used. "Stop whining". "Stop complaining." And, given that such a phrase is usually directed to boys, it also tells young men they're not allowed to express emotions, which is not healthy. That is the cultural construct behind these particular phrases.

I know, but I wasn't judging you, I was judging the reaction. Why do you have that reaction even if you think it doesn't help, and why do so many other people have it? Because angst is seen as shameful whining, helped by the creation of the Emo Teen stereotype.

Heheh. Fair enough.

Sorry, but that's simplistic and unrealistic. First, there are problems, not "real" problems, because there are no fake ones. It may sound like nitpicking but many people judge if the other person deserves or not to feel bad depending on the cause of angst, so for example the death of a relative is a "real" problem while whatever other "minor" cause is not a "true problem". Secondly, "whining" is just a condescending term. Where is it written what is whining or what is not? Why do you believe that the one who says "I'm not good enough because X" does not actually want to change instead of just needing help and understanding?.

I was basically told to shut up, stop complaining, everybody goes through this, quit being silly, do you want to disappoint your parents... etc, etc.

And, now, I have the satisfaction of sitting back and saying "thanks for not noticing my actual illness at the time, folks, when I was confused and asking for help for something I couldn't adequately explain". Oh, and had it been noticed, I might not have it as badly 25 years on as I do, due to cumulative damage in the early stages. Ta.

This is the problem to telling people to "man up" in a dismissive fashion: you might well be missing some rather important parts of the picture-puzzle, some of which are unchangeable things the person cannot control. But, learning the correct ways to deal with the underlying issues (once they worked out to exist) would help more than having somebody assume you're wangsting over nothing much. Many of those who treated me that way honestly had my best interests at heart. They just got how they could help me horribly wrong.

First, let me clarify. I don't think that my negative reaction to whining is what isn't useful. The theoretical reaction of saying "Get over it. You're not good enough, and nobody likes you, not because of X, but because you bitch about it," is what I think is not useful. The negative emotional reaction to the whining might be useful and might not depending on the circumstance.

As to why I have the reaction in the first place is because every single person in this world has had problems they can't control thrust on them. The people who seek help with, do something about, or work past their problems are going to be the most successful. That's what I think of when I think of "Man up." It's, "Stop whining and do something about it."

Actually there are fake problems, but not in the way that you mean. Plenty of people will say whatever to get attention. And that's part of what whining is, to answer your next question.

I'd assume where it's written would be a dictionary. Here's one such definition. "To complain or protest in a childish fashion." I like it. I would add that if I could attach a "Waaaah" to the end of it and keep the same tone, it's whining.

But to be more straightforward I would simply say that whining in the cases I'm talking about are statements ridden with self-pity and usually a touch of attention-seeking.

What if that self-pity is there for a reason they don't understand? (Like in my case, having a real concern shot down multiple times.)

Yes, people often do make a mountain out of a mole-hill. But, some "mole-hills" prove to have been mountains down the line. Dismissing a complaint because, on the surface, it doesn't seem to be much (and the individual has complained before) so no proper investigation needs to be done can make for some disastrous decisions.

Self-pity is not bad. It's usually acknowledging your problems. You can't judge if someone is attention seeking or not (in the way that you mean it) and also this call for attention may be a call for help.

This "in a childish fashion" does not exist. Complaining is never childish...it may be wrong, or badly expressed, but not childish. Plus what is immature or not is extremely subjective. And "Waaah" does not mean anything. People in pain go "Waaah". It's all right.

My mistake.

Yes, sometimes it may be useful to the process of making society a more conformist and worse place to live.

First, there's two fallacies here:

• "If it happens often then it is normal and okay". This helps breed the whole condescending "everyone goes through this / it's just a phase" abomination.

• "Someone who is angsting does not want to deal with his/her problems". Enough said about this one.

Secondly, there shouldn't be a guide about how you should react to problems or not. That's what I meant before when I said people judge other people's pain by analyzing if they are allowed to feel bad or not. If something "minor" happens to an hypothetical person, and he crumbles and cries, then it's clearly not minor to said person, and this is a problem that needs to be acknowledged and understood, never mocked.

—

I agree with you on the general idea Euo, but I don't think there are mountains and mole-hills beyond the person ('tis a nitpick don't worry). There's no objective importance/size/whatever (can't find the right word) of the causes of angst, this [insert word here]-ness does not exist separated of the suffering individual. If someone is crying because of something "petty", then it is not petty. No angst is caused by a mole-hill.

edited 6th May '12 1:24:40 PM by Anfauglith

Even putting the gender issue aside, telling somebody to "man up" or "grow up" seems kind of pointless to me. Nobody wants to wallow in self-misery: after all, it's not a particularly pleasant sensation.

It would be more useful, I think, to try to identify what the underlying issues of a given situation are and try to offer some suggestions to solve them.

Yes. All this does is reinforce the whole crabs-in-a-bucket behavior.

You know, context has a lot to do with things here. Sometimes "Man Up" is acceptable, other times it is not.

If you've got a job to do or a responsibility, and you are neglecting that, "Man the fuck up and do your job." can often be acceptable.

It's not being sad that's the problem. It's complaining about your problems while making no attempt to fix them or seek help. That helps no one and only makes yourself feel worse.

Complaining can be seeking help.

I think perhaps a better question is, is there anything that any of us can say that will make "tough people" change their minds?

I was halfway through a point-by-point counterargument when I realized that an example would better illustrate what I'm talking about. So I'll use myself.

I grew up in a rather strict household. My sister and I were basically told that we wouldn't be allowed to date outside of group settings, that we certainly couldn't go out on school nights (even if our homework was done), that we couldn't go to parties where they didn't know all the attendees, etc.

This stunted my social growth by quite a bit. I ended up having some very close guy friends, but girls were incredibly mysterious and sometimes frightening creatures. I never learned to interact with them. When I was a junior in undergrad, I had my first kiss. Unfortunately, this was with a girl I actually liked, and she probably expected better than my fumbling attempts from a 20-something. I did not see her again.

Do you know what changed between my younger years and that first girl I kissed? I stopped caring about who was to blame for my problems and simply focused on solving them. I had spent so much time resenting my parents for this one failure on their part (they are both exceptionally good people, and they did an amazing job, this aside) and thinking they'd ruined me for life that I hadn't actually focused on solving the problem itself. And so, of course, it went unsolved. I complained to my friends and my sister, begging them to tell me what I could do, but all the whining in the world couldn't help.

One friend finally told me to stop focusing on the problem itself, and focus on finding solutions. Being upset that I'd never had a girlfriend was hampering my ability to get one.

So I did my best to reform. It wasn't an overnight process. But acknowledging that whatever my parents had done, it was on me to be the best person I could be, and that, quite independently, I was a naturally shy person, and that all of this had combined to give me a lack of confidence - these were things that over the course of a couple of years managed to turn me into a person who can have a girlfriend if he wants to.

I started working out, I started telling riskier jokes around girls, and most importantly, I got a job waiting tables so I could get past my shyness. And, finally, it worked. My only regret from all of this is that I spent so much time whining and complaining and feeling sorry for myself that I didn't start actually working on solutions until so late.

And that's what kills me about self-pity. It is not a motivational feeling. It is something you wallow in because it feels marginally better than despair, but you get trapped there. What got me out of it was essentially a "Man up! Stop whining about it, and go deal with your problems."

Hm, I haven't had a first kiss either. I think that this might have something to do with pretty much everyone I meet is a homosexual, though, and this puts an enormous damper on my dating life.

edited 6th May '12 2:38:08 PM by ohsointocats

@ Anf: If that's the intention, then it's fine (though outright asking for help is more respectable). There is a difference, though, between "help me" and "feel bad for me". The latter suggests you're more interested in taking advantage of your problems than fixing them.

edited 6th May '12 3:25:11 PM by RTaco

How is it that everyone you meet is somehow part of a small slice of the population?