LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

First of all, the actions of some people in a group does not change what the group is about. Christianity is a very wide umbrella encompassing a huge number of different denominations. Given that fact, a large number of Christians are fine with letting other Christian groups do what they want. They don't see their faith being attacked by homophobes because they think that people will be reasonable enough not to lump all Christians into a single group. Especially since 75-80% of Americans are Christian, and assuming that they all agree on ANYTHING is completely ludicrous.

Cutting this short because I have to go IRL.

cum

As I've told you before it is no more your place to judge the dedication and commitment

Any why not? It's as easy as turning on the Television to see there is a whole a lot of Hate spilling out Christians these days and almost no compassion or good coming from "true" or "moderet" Christians in kind. I don't buy that they can't get noticed, I believe they simply aren't trying hard enough.

And if as it stands now is the best "True" or "modert" Christians are willing or able to commit against the people supposedly perverting and misusing their Religion, then I see no reason why we should want or need your help.

Edit: And for clarification, "All of my points" have not been disproven, in fact the vast majority of them have gone unadressed, period.

I paitently await your full reply

edited 8th Sep '12 10:00:07 AM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

That's not what I'm talking about. Boredman said nobody was claiming pro-gay Christians were the majority, but you both have said things to that effect in the last fucking page.

You:

Boredman:

Then the media was blamed for Christians being portrayed in a negative light. Fine, the news tends to focus on the negative. But that doesn't change the things I face in the real world. On a near-daily basis, I experience homophobia from people who go to churches and identify as Christians. What am I supposed to think?

I haven't been following this thread much, as I tend to avoid OTC like the plague, but I'm just going to leave my thoughts on the issue here:

The label of "Christian" is far too broad to assume that they all take a particular stance on a particular issue. Heck, even people who identify as "Christian" have a ton of trouble trying to delineate exactly who fits the description. So my point is this:

Yes, there are people who identify as Christians who are homophobic. There are people who identify as Christians who are staunchly against homophobia. One may be more common than the other (I don't know which, demographic info is incredibly hard to come by), but both are definitely out there, and it's unfair to non-homophobic Christians make an assertion that all Christians are homophobes.

I totally agree that there are a lot of self-identified Christians out there are who are utter douchebags and bigots concerning the issue. They may even be in the majority, but it doesn't mean that all Christians hold those views.

And as noted, the reason why homophobes get more press is because they make for a better story. Because here's the thing: The media generally does not give a flying shit about anything other than ratings, and controversy garners more ratings than anything else. The Westboro Baptist Church will almost always get more press than pro LBGT churches because more people will watch a story about crazy bigots picketing a funeral than about people being nice to other people. It's unfortunate, but pretty much every trend in news tends to end up that way.

edited 8th Sep '12 11:19:15 AM by JapaneseTeeth

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I don't think anyone has made the assertion that all Christians are homophobes. Speaking for myself, my assertion has been merely that Christianity itself is changing into a hateful and destructive religion due to the efforts of Bigoted and Hateful Christians, and that if "Modert" Christians want to keep their Religion from becoming that, it is their duty and responsibility to put a stop to it, not ours.

Our responsibility and duty is to right for equal rights for the LGBT Community, and if Christianity tries to stop that, to push us down, we have right and duty to push back.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

When has anyone here said all Christians are homophobic? I haven't seen it.

Like I said, I haven't been following the thread very closely.

The issue is this:

"Christianity" is not one giant block of people with a united stance on the issue; it's comprised of hundreds of denominations that all have different views. There's no one set of beliefs that define "Christian". Some are undoubtedly harmful, some aren't harmful but aren't taking the initiative either, some are taking initiative. I just take issue with the fact that you're basically lumping all of "Christianity" into one massive grouping that you've identified as negative when in reality it's a cluster of groups, some bad and some good. I know for a fact that there are pro-LGBT churches out there who are actively fighting, and they're making progress. It's slow (slower than I'd like, obviously), but I think some of them are doing as best they can.

So basically, I think that that statement is misleading and should be more along the lines of

because not all denominations are hateful and destructive, and it's horribly unfair to lump them in with those that are.

I'd also personally debate that "Homosexuality is a sin" is even a necessary part of church dogma; I know that a lot of churches do believe that, but there are churches out there that most definitely don't. I'm a Christian, and I know I don't believe that.

Anyway, I don't know how often I'll be in here; I tend to steer clear of OTC stuff, and I have to admit that when it comes to LGBT stuff I don't really have much clue what I'm talking about. I just think it's important to remember that not everybody who identifies themselves with a certain term necessarily has the same belief system, or that they all form one cohesive group. It would kind of be like assuming that all LGBT people are flaming or something along those lines.

edited 8th Sep '12 11:34:39 AM by JapaneseTeeth

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The thing is JT, when the whole world functionally treats all Christianity as a single group, then it tends to behave as a single group, not necessarily cohesive or in step, but it still moves as a whole in on direction or another, the direction the majority chooses and pushes for. Christian has a single national image, a single direction, and thus far a single stance on certain issues. The factions that disagree on those issues are outlyers and at this point so far in the minority that they have been unable to make a significant change.

I want that to change, I really hope it changes. But until I see evidence of such change, in the interest of my own personal safety I cannot assume innocent until proven guilty and in the interest of the LGBT cause we have to treat them as they present themselves to us and treat us in kind, as enemies.

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

I think the problem is that no matter how many individual Christians are pro-gay (Starship claims it's the majority and I won't argue), the Christian "party line" is still anti-gay.

No high-ranked Christian authority figure acknowledges the pro-gay Christians exist (or they don't consider them true Christians).

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

Looking at your location tag, I would fully expect to see a majority of the obnoxious ones in Alabama. No offense to anyone in Alabama, but the cultural and historical circumstances surrounding that entire region of the states have led to a whole lot of fundamentalist revivals that are a good deal of the problem.

In my parish on the other end of the continent, I don't think any of the priests we've had in the last 15 years have even mentioned the matter, much less spewed hate.

edited 8th Sep '12 11:44:10 AM by Pykrete

I personally don't think that statement is correct, and honestly I kinda find it a bit offensive. As someone who's a Christian and is pro-LGBT, it irks me that you're basically excluding me from the religion as a whole based on what other members are doing. It's like I'm being told "You aren't a Christian because you don't believe X". It's kinda like if I told you "You aren't really pro-LGBT because you don't do X".

Even if "Christianity" looks like a singular group, it isn't. There have always been subgroups within it that have divergent beliefs. Yes, some of them suck. But you don't get to say that the good groups also suck because they happen to have a similar name. I don't identify at all with groups like the WBC, and I resent being lumped into the same group as them despite that.

@Medinoc: Yeah, that would be the problem. I guess what I'm trying say is, don't assume that all Christians are terrible because the party line is crap. Although I'd even dispute that there is one particular "party line". There are just some denominations that are bigger and more influential. Outside of the Catholic church, there's no real hierarchy and a lot of denominations act independently of each other.

Yeah, the south is notoriously conservative about stuff like that, which I think might be skewing the issue. Where I am (east coast USA), I go to a methodist university that's very much pro-LGBT.

edited 8th Sep '12 11:47:40 AM by JapaneseTeeth

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@JT

I'm not excluding you from your religion, I'm saying that your particular faction is a extreme minority within the Church(s), to the point of, and I mean absolutely no offense by this, irelevance. If you want that to change, please change it. We would more then welcome the help. But as things stand there isn't any room for gray, the Christian political leaders have left no room for grey.

There are just some denominations that are bigger and more influential.

Then how come these denominations are no pro-gay, despite all the claims of the prevalence of pro-gay Christians?

edited 8th Sep '12 11:54:39 AM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"

Nobody is saying that they're prevalent, just that they're there. I'd assume they are in the minority on the whole. And I don't think they're irrelevant either, they're just more effective in some areas than others (i.e. in Alabama it's going to be a real uphill battle), and that just because they exist doesn't mean they're going to be able to influence others as quickly as they'd like. I'd love for the church as a whole to get the picture, but it takes time do that; even if all the pro-gay Christians were working towards that goal, it would still take time for the effort to reach the top. It sucks, yeah, but just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that people aren't working towards it and making progress. You could compare it to the civil rights movement; MLK wasn't exactly able to erase hundreds of years of prejudice overnight, but he made progress. It's not a perfect comparison, sure, but I'm pretty sure that the LGBT community is far more widely accepted in Christianity now than it was fifty years ago. Yes, it sucks that it isn't accepted now because it should be, but just because it hasn't yet doesn't mean that it never will, or that people aren't currently working towards that goal.

edited 8th Sep '12 12:02:22 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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The hierarchy tends to be considerably more conservative than the general public — not only because it's run by old men who are also statistically more conservative than the general public, but because reversing dogma is something they don't take lightly at all, and are only likely to appoint people who aren't likely to do so (we're not a democracy — if we were I'd think Catholics' 90% dissent rate on the contraception ban would've ended that one a long-ass time ago). You think it's a pain in the ass to pass a law in the US? Wait till you look at church dogma that comes with a "P.S. the Holy Spirit says we're right so shut up" because some douchebags in the Middle Ages wanted to give local kings a big middle finger.

edited 8th Sep '12 12:05:50 PM by Pykrete

@L Mage: To be fair, both the Epicopalian and UCC have openly said they're pro-gay. Both will perform gay marriage ceremonies in their churches, and both encourage their members to accept and support gay parishioners in the community.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Also this. The guys at the top are the ones who have the most to lose by changing, and since they've been around longest, they'll be the most resistant. However, once the power shifts to the incoming generation, I think things will improve. Essentially, it boils down to the fact that while pro-LGBT Christianity is a fringe movement now, it may very well not be a few decades down the road.

Huh, hadn't heard about that. Cool beans.

edited 8th Sep '12 12:05:19 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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This is kind of old news, but I've just learned about this and I don't think this was mentioned.

A month ago, Obama passed a bill banning the protests of military funerals. Obviously, this is a response to the Westboro Baptist Church.

It's just amazing that we allowed that bullshit for so long.

About freaking time.

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In regards to Christianity, I think we're seeing most of the homophobia in the US and some other first-world nations (among other places). Sure, Boredman and Maxima can argue that it is not quite the case, but looking at Christianity in America, it's harder to argue against that perception.

"Hipsters: the most dangerous gang in the US." - Pacific Mackerel

Even then in my experience, it's more limited to conservative areas; the south and midwest. But yeah, America is a bit behind on a lot of that stuff. Which is a pity.

edited 8th Sep '12 12:24:46 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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It's also prevalent along the coasts when you get out of the metro areas. Even out here, there are some communities that I wouldn't feel comfortable being openly bisexual in.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Good point. I have to admit I don't get out of the urban areas very often. As I said before, I don't really keep up with the issue as much as I could. In my area poverty and crappy education are pretty big problems, so most of my attention gets diverted.

edited 8th Sep '12 12:36:25 PM by JapaneseTeeth

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Honestly, I would say that crappy education is one of the problems that impacts gay rights. See the "No Homo Promo" type laws and how they directly influence both issues.

"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian

Read these quotes more closely. Nowhere did we say "Most Christians are pro-gay". Starship was saying that gay rights is a divisive issue and that saying that the anti-gay side is the "mainstream" view is oversimplifying it. I was simply saying that pro-gay Christians make up a significant number of the population. You don't have to be a majority to be significant.

Quit getting upset over things we didn't even say. Address our actual arguments.

cum

Indeed.

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