LGBTQ+ Rights and Religion

Ahem. Atrocity Olympics aren't the topic here.

Something has to change. The backlash against homophobia is only going to increase with time, and religious groups (who endorse it, obviously) won't help themselves by playing the victim. Those of you who are opposed to secularism, what would you suggest?

edited 7th Sep '12 7:42:56 AM by Morgikit

Fixed. I'm sure not every religious group supports homophobia.

I thought that was what I said...

edited 7th Sep '12 8:43:58 AM by Morgikit

The difference is, we are moving to a place as a whole where it takes reason and logic to gain footing, let alone strength, in the groups centered on these ideological, and reason and logic are almost always mutually exclusive to bigotry and zealotry (as I have never in all my life met a single person that was able to defend their bigotry with any kind of logic grounded in reality). But since Faith by it's very nature requires blindly believing in something without attempt to apply rational thought to it, it is swiftly becoming the last shelter for bigotry.

I'm sure that's what you meant, it's just the structure of your sentence. "religious groups (who endorse it, obviously)" sounds like all religious groups obviously endorse homophobia.

edited 7th Sep '12 8:57:06 AM by pagad

Not exactly. "Reason" and "logic" are meaningless in any authoritarian society unless the authority figure has the means to accurately communicate said logic to the population.

This statement, and really your whole thesis, seems to have a lot of basis. I can see why so many agree with it. But alas this idea that religion has some sort of predisposition to bigotry while the irreligious are paragons of logic and reason is not only false, but these very threads have proven the point.

Let's take an easy one, it's fashionable in these parts to blame religion, particularly Christianity for everything from the Recession to Hurricane Katrina. You have folks like myself who point out that the statistics and studies, not "our" "dusty book", don't bear that out, it takes 50 pages of people nearly coming to forum blows before someone finally grudgingly admits that "Okay, maybe we misspoke".

Then we have this issue of Christianity and homosexual bigotry. People in these very thread have stated with the utmost conviction that the Christian majority is against gays and that anti-homosexuality is the "one thing that unites us all." This nonsense flies in the face of all the stats, studies, and personal testimonials (not "the Bible") available.

Take even the usual talking points of the gay rights lobby; "Religious bias causes suicide" and "Homosexuality is a genetic trait that can't be changed." I've personally seen people become violently obstinate when you point out that none of their own data actually says that. You can draw that conclusion, yes, but the data doesn't actually definitively say that.

So you see, L, it gets frustrating to be told we're the ones who use our faith to cop out from reason and logic, while watching the same high and mighty people who level those accusations ignore their own logic and reason in the name of "proving" once for all how bad we are.

edited 7th Sep '12 9:12:01 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

@Zeal

I'm not aware of any Modern Society, who at this point in time, that is a problem for.

Recession to Hurricane Katrina

I have never blamed the Religous for either of these, Hurricane Katrina was a natural disaster beyond our ability to prevent, The Recession (in my opinion) was the result of the ridiculous Regan-style economic the Republicans have clung to for years. Both are irrelevant to this thread.

People in these very thread have stated with the utmost conviction that the Christian majority is against gays and that anti-homosexuality is the "one thing that unites us all." This nonsense flies in the face of all the stats, studies, and personal testimonials (not "the Bible") available.

I know, I am one such person that said that. And I don't know what stats you are reading, but the to my knowledge there is all of one major church that does not hold an official anti-gay position. There are no relevant political persons of clear and paramount Christian faith condemning the actions of the Fundamentalists and other extremists, and all Main-Stream and relevant bodies of religious and political interests remain staunchly opposed to gay rights. Stats can, and often are, flawed, staggered, or plain cooked, to favor the party behind their survey, but that facts that lay out their in plain view are very hard to skewer.

"Religious bias causes suicide" and "Homosexuality is a genetic trait that can't be changed." I've personally seen people become violently obstinate when you point out that none of their own data actually says that.

Thank you for invalidating the personal experiences of Ryan Kendall and the hundreds like him with the second.

As for first let me quote this article on the subject, which was written by a highly religious Christian himself:

It’s a fact that the vast majority of Christians believe that being gay is a profound moral failing, a foul aberration, a repelling, unnatural offense against God that fully warrants as punishment an eternity spent in hell

Asserting that those two facts have no relationship cannot possibly be anything but intellectually dishonest. It’s like someone who sews robes for the Klan asserting that they personally don’t contribute to the harming of blacks.

edited 7th Sep '12 9:31:17 AM by LMage

It is arguably not true that "Religious bias causes suicide", because that phrasing is a strawman of the actual (true and statistically backed) argument that homophobic bullying by (some) Christians has lead to suicides.

Bullying that they are lead to feel is right and socially acceptable by the cultivation of the idea of Homosexuality's inherent wrongness! Even the non-devote have a fall back, have the general aura of the idea surrounding them that this is wrong, this sinful, abhorrent and thus it makes it o.k to hurt them, to attack them, to dehumanize them, because who cares about the feelings of the danmmed and doomed? They clearly deserve it.

Don't you get it? You can't have a major moral and social power say "These people are going to hell along side rapists and murders" and not expect people to treat them like they might a self-declared rapist or a murderer walking around free!

I don't remember hearing of Christians being blamed for Hurricane Katrina. This is news to me. I do remember prominent evangelicals like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson telling homosexuals they helped contribute to 9/11. Well, more specifically that it was because of gays that their god allowed the attacks to occur. Yeah, God is an Al-Qaeda operative. Comforting thought, isn't it? LGBT people have been blamed for everything from the fall of the Roman Empire to the shooting in that theater in Colorado a few months back (by one of those "pro-family" organizations).

Edited: got the location of the shooting wrong.

edited 7th Sep '12 10:58:38 AM by Morgikit

@Starship

There are gay people in Iran, where the penalty for it is death. That's all the data you should need.

So ... it's wrong to disapprove of X, because anyone who engages in X might get hurt by some idiot who's energized by your disapproval, or might feel bad about himself to the point of suicide. Check.

Tell me, though: by these standards, is there any opinion on morals, personal inclinations, or folkways that a) isn't a triviality or platitude, and b) isn't a ticking bomb of some conceivable sort? By this kind of logic, it should be immoral to formulate a controversial opinion about anything—who really knows who could get indirectly hurt?

@Jhim

You are engaging in Reductio ad absurdum. Clearly every opinion does not cause the level of pain suffering and death that the Church's Stance on Homosexuality does.

@Morg: I thought that was in Colorado.

Ah, and now we can finally prove that being irreligious doesn't make one rational or even give one a basic grasp of critical reasoning skills. Let's begin.

As many people including myself have already told you L Mage, we are not responsible because you choose one very narrow criteria to prove your point and ignore the countless other more reliable datasets.

First off, your "anti-gay position" definition is pretty straw to start off with. Perhaps you mean, only one official Church doesn't call homosexuality a sin. You'd be correct. Most Churches resist the urge to conform to popular opinion and have the right to their tenets.

However, there is NO majority, or even sizeable set of Christianity, that supports gay bullying, gay suicides, or unequal treatment of gays. Most would have no problem with civil unions, but that's really a question of semantics, and many don't care.

And again, your ignorance of all the voices that speak out against Church-backed bigotry is your responsibility not ours. A simple Google search will reveal the many Christians who vehemently oppose bigotry; that they haven't met a fame quotient of your liking is totally irrelevant.

On to your point about Ryan Kendall...what exactly is your point? There are hundreds, let's say thousands, like him. And??

Again, a simple Google search on bullying and suicide will reveal the numerous studies that emphatically state that there have to be underlying issues with the victim themselves in order for them to be driven to that point. Basic psychology, not religion.

And really L Mage, one guy writes an article about what Christianity is and isn't and that magically makes the entire volumes of heated intra-Christian arguments invalid. Come now, really??

And in some Asian countries, the penalty for being Christian is also death. Your point??

edited 7th Sep '12 10:49:35 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

Who even said or implied that?

Well there's this:

This is just the latest, and in my opinion, the most rational and intelligent positing of this theory.

I remember a wonderful rant from the famous Drunk Scriblerian wherein he tried to demonstrate that every fucked up thing that happened in Western Civilization was because of, in his words, "the fucking white elephant in the room, namely Religion".

I have personally had my intelligence insulted for no other reason that my "belief in silly fairy tales." Other religous/Christian tropers have noted similar receptions.

The bottom line is religious belief doesn't make one stupid, and being irreligious doesn't mean you can't fall victim to your own dogma.

edited 7th Sep '12 11:10:16 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

People do not commit suicide just because other people have controversial opinions. They do it because they are constantly demonized and made to feel like outcasts. That is what is happening to the LGBT community.

Is opposing gay marriage the same as actively bullying a gay person? No. But the key argument against gay marriage is so clearly rooted against gay people, and not for "protecting" the institution of marriage. What's been argued repeatedly by those who are anti-LGBT is that children need a "real" family, which to them has to be a mother and a father. What they're saying is that gay parents can't raise a normal, healthy child. Any family, no matter how loving, is not valid to these people if the parents are gay. This is NOT a normal, healthy disagreement between theists and secularists. This is NOT a trivial issue. This is a serious, personal insult to families around the country. And it's not just a few idiots who espouse this sentiment; it's a mainstream belief.

Once again, nobody suggests that the starting points aren't similar. Where those of us moderate (for lack of a better term) Christians get annoyed is that 1) it seems secularists flatly refuse to see the clear place where the two views diverge, which in turn leads to 2) secularists presenting the two viewpoints as the same.

I am among those who believe a one man, one woman, committed relationship is the best basis for a family and it's the way I intend to build mine. I make no apologies for this.

The idea that it is my job to judge and force other people to do uphold that ideal runs counter to nearly every known doctrine in the Scriptures. By the way, in my conversations with others of other faiths, that sentiment seems to run counter to their doctrines as well.

So once again, as we've said for ten-thousand times, as the data has proven, it's not religion. It's bigotry, plain and simple. The ignorant hicks who are against gays are also the ones stuck in 1893 who think that miscegenation is polluting the great White genome. If it wasn't the Bible it's be something else to bolster their bs.

Again, when the day comes we attack the true enemy, much progress will be made.

edited 7th Sep '12 11:30:32 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

Like who? Where? I've looked around, and still haven't found anyting to support that. There are a few small LGBT-friendly denominations, like the Episcopal Church and the United Church of Christ, but their numbers pale in comparison to the anti-gay mainstream.

Christians have groups like the Family Research Council advocating against bullying laws and marriage equality. Where is the gay-friendly Christian equivalent? Where is the pro-equality Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson or Timothy Dolan? Who are these people you claim exist?

And how would you suggest we go about doing that?

edited 7th Sep '12 11:35:55 AM by Morgikit

That's far from clear, actually. We all have opinions on a wide range of issues, many of which are momentous to other people (even if not to us), and are capable of rousing destructive passions.

Regardless, the only valid question about the Church's arguments is whether they're true or false. If—and I grant that's a large if—the Church is correct in its stance, then the Church ought to proclaim as much. If the Church's arguments happened to be true, that'd be all there is to say. If they were true, then the only way to minimize scattered suicides and thuggish violence would be living by pleasant lies. I will not knowingly live by lies.

edited 7th Sep '12 11:45:25 AM by Jhimmibhob