The Constructive Criticism Thread

Well fictionpress says it was published April 1st, so I’d assume fairly recently.

Okay, so Huthman hasn't replied to the critiques given and it's been two whole weeks since their turn ended. At 4 out of 5 critics, I think we should move on with the list.^note I've removed Joacobanfield from the list since they didn't reply at all. If they're still interested in participating, they will have to add their name to the bottom of the list.

I've already contacted the next person on the list, Para Chomp, who wanted help with the script of their comic book. Quite interesting, indeed.

Para Chomp: July 24th, 2018

Excited and nervous but I'm really happy I'm finally going to get some criticism.

This is the first chapter of my comic book "Blue Hell", a story about pirates where the main character, Aqua, hires a group to destroy a cursed item for her. I know a comic book script is different than a regular script, but think of it as a novel meets a play.

Bold numbers in the left column indicate speech. If not, they indicate a panel and things going on in it. Here is an example:

Panel 1/

Speech 1/

Speech 2/

Panel 2/

Speech 3/

Obviously certain numbers come before others, Panel 1/ comes before Panel 2/ and the same goes for speech. Any Speech that is between two Panels is located inside the Panel above. In the example Panel 1/ contains Speech 1/ and Speech 2/ while Panel 2 only contains Speech 3/. Same can be applied to Pages and Panels.

(O/P) means "off panel" so the artist would not draw the character in the panel but would have an indication of them talking. I also want you to be mindful of the pages: odd numbered pages are on the left and even numbered pages are on the right. Comics must be 22 pages long, no greater, no less.

Here are the Google Docs that leads to the script:

Editable version https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UyQ49epWiQv-oNFURzMG9fCrmvVP2xZOBa2ObbZf2Bs/edit?usp=sharing

Read only version https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MM1wWrjOsLMqV3sr81SoNYvuv0Poy0TGCRCNAm42aTg/edit?usp=sharing

Character Physical Descriptions https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jA6Le9wMi-J2PO91T80_DtHPNoU28DzX44emkCmcbDQ/edit?usp=sharing

I hope it's not too confusing and I wish you good luck.

Edited by ParaChomp on Jul 26th 2018 at 10:03:10 AM

Here's a bit of an unrelated question but...know what kind of art style will the comic have?

I can't draw and would probably rely on pitching my writing to an artist. I do have ideas for character designs but I'd rather have someone else take said ideas and do what they want with them.

Do you want me to include character profiles for my main characters?

Edited by ParaChomp on Jul 24th 2018 at 5:56:57 AM

I think physical profiles of your characters would be a good idea seeing as the primary (visual) element of webcomics is not currently available. That being said, I’d rather you not include descriptions of their personalities. That’s something we should pick up from your writing, and I wouldn’t want descriptions to prejudice our (or at least, my) reading of your script.

Yes, it's better to post the descriptions of your characters' personalities separately, so we could view them after the first round of critique to see what your intent was and maybe help you with the execution.

Edited by Millership on Jul 24th 2018 at 9:04:36 PM

So, first off, while I understand you want us to focus primarily on the content of your story, I would strongly encourage you to learn a bit about formating a comic script. While there is no one standard format to comic scriptwriting, there are some common conventions. Doing so will make your work easier to read and understand, allowing readers to focus on the story itself. One simple and common way to format comics that I recommend can be found here. If you find this difficult to implement there is free software or word processor templates available that you can use.

Another thing that I noticed is that your descriptions are sometimes challenging to understand. Some examples:

"Overhead shot of a port on a large rig. There are lots of people and business is bustling. Many ships can be seen docked there." I'm not sure what a "rig" is, in what way lots of people and businesses could be on one, or how ships can be docked to it. Do you mean something like "Pier"?

"Shot of Aqua turning away from the billboard, she is in a wheelchair wearing a baggy raincoat, a cloth covering her tail to disguise it as legs, a facial mask, sunglasses, and a baseball cap. Two crates on wheels that are attached to her wheelchair via a chain. Make sure the reader cannot tell that she is a mermaid."

I would restrict yourself to the physical description of what you want your illustrator to draw, ie a woman in a wheelchair wearing a baggy raincoat... etc. All the artist wants is to know what to draw, anything else will be confusing. If you want your artist to include non-obvious artistic hints as to who it is, or if you want to ensure that the depiction of the mystery woman is consistent with later depictions of Aqua, then just include something like "Mysterious Woman (Aqua in disguise) in a wheelchair..."

"Aqua is in a bar at a table alone. She has had a few drinks of clear liquids and has fallen asleep." Again, it's not obvious to me what you want your artist to draw. Is she seated at the bar with her head on her arms? Are there glasses on the table with small amounts of clear liquid inside them? Then say that. For clarity, you should try to be as visual and concrete in your descriptions as possible. This way, you help the artist preserve the visual impact that you are trying to achieve with your story.

Also, try to keep all panel descriptions in the present tense, even if you have to use passive voice. For example, from page 9: "At the dock, the group is standing in front of a their ship. Izumi has jumped onto the ship. Emile has removed the chain attaching the shop to the dock. Orlando is holding onto Aqua’s wheelchair, he is looking back with a panicked expression. Aqua is looking up at Orlando. They have the two crates with them." The purpose is to eliminate ambiguity for the artist regarding what is actually happening within the panel. Keep descriptions as concrete and visual as possible.

The sequence of the scenes is a little unclear. I assume that scene 1 (on the boat) takes place after scene 2 (the billboard), which takes place after scene 3 (the bar)? If so, you should include some visual hints that time is out of sequence. A clock or a calendar on the wall is the most obvious way, but there are other, more subtle options. For example, scene 1 and 3 could take place at night (as seen out a window), while scene 2 takes place during daylight (obvious if outdoors). Play around with it, see if you can help the reader understand what is going on.

Page 7's panel description is confusing. What boxes? Where are they? When you transition into the jewelry shop, there should be an establishing shot of the exterior of the store.

Page 8's transition to an action scene is a little abrupt. You should spend a panel or two depicting the protagonists getting ready to attack the merchant. The artist will need some guidence regarding how realistic a scene you are going for. Are the poses genuine martial arts moves or more like standard action heroes? Is there emotion on their faces or do they appear more stoic? Action scenes require more detailed descriptions than most other types, because more happens in a shorter timeframe, so err a little more on the side of more artistic guidence.

I think you are overdoing the 3-5 panel page approach (I'm assuming that this script is intended for a printed page, as opposed to a web-based medium). For a printed comic, 6-8 panels has been the traditional standard; more if you are packing in a lot of sequential actions within a scene, less if you are going for a wordless emotional impact. An odd number of panels implies a stacked tier of panels much wider than they are tall, unless you specify otherwise.

I think you should occassionally include a page description at the beginning of a new comic page. Give some clues regarding the panel layout, although you can leave the details to the artist's discretion. Is the action intended to flow quickly, or is the reader supposed to linger over each panel?

Here's a picky detail that stuck out for me: I think Aqua's exclamation on page 8 ("By Neptune") is a little cheesy. Unless that's the style you are deliberately going for, you might try something a little more naturalistic. Plus there's the opportunity for some deep worldbuilding here: do your mermaids share the human's greco-roman mythology? Or do they have one of their own? Are they as salty as humans are in the same situation? "Fish shit!" might be too crude for you, but I'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere. Give it some thought.

You also need to focus a little more on Aqua's emotional reaction. How does she feel about the violence? Is she sickened, excited, fearful, ambivalent, what? Spend some panels (at two panels, you certainly have plenty of room on the page) giving her some reactions and dialogue.

Again, page 9's transition out of the action scene is also too abrupt. Let the reader get to know the merchant a little. Why did he pull the gun? What was he trying to do? If he wanted the item, let him gloat a little: "You were stupid to bring something this valuable into my shop!" or something along those lines. You need to build the character up a little so that his defeat will mean something to the reader.

It's also not clear to me who the "they" are that they are trying to escape from, or why they need to escape in such a hurry. Something's missing. If it's the police, why can't they claim self-defense (since that's what it was)? Are the police corrupt in this city? Are the three humans wanted criminals? We need more background here.

Page 12's transition to another action scene is much better than the first one. This is more like it. That said, for the next nine pages we watch the four protagonists assault four policemen in blood spattering detail. This is very unusual behavior on the part of protagonists, and most readers will require an explanation of why they are behaving this way. If this story is meant to be taking place in a gritty, crime-ridden dystopia, such that the typical reaction to being pulled over by the police is to assault them, then that should have been established in the first couple of pages. If there is another explanation, then there should have been some foreshadowing regarding what that explanation is.

I assume that the biblical quote in the last panel on page 22 is meant for thematic impact, and that you plan to explain what is going on in the rest of the story.

OK, overall I think it was a pretty good story, and I would read the rest of it. I hope you found this feedback helpful. Good luck with it.

Edited by DeMarquis on Jul 24th 2018 at 12:06:25 PM

Oh my god, thank you so much. It will take me a while to implement those.

Thank you for questioning Aqua's catchphrase, it made me realize it contrasts with her being Christian. I'll come up with something else.

Here is a link to character descriptions (I also included this link in my original post).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jA6Le9wMi-J2PO91T80_DtHPNoU28DzX44emkCmcbDQ/edit?usp=sharing

As for Izumi, I want to incorporate this description into her design but I have no idea how to do so while being subtle:

"a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"

I will get onto these changes ASAP but keep the criticism coming, it's much appreciated.

Edited by ParaChomp on Jul 26th 2018 at 6:10:36 AM

You are very welcome.

Made some changes and updated the files (though I had to update the links). I still need to change it to a comic book script format but I thought I'd mention I updated the text. Aside from that, there are a few points I want to make.

- I feel like Aqua would have her shark teeth exposed in the first two pages. The tarp in these pages is also too suspicious in contrast of trying to pass off as a cripple. How could I hide the fact that she's a mermaid but still show her captured in the first two pages? If not, what should I do?

- Some panel descriptions are more complex than others. I don't mind the simple ones and don't mind the artist interpreting it the way they please. The ones with a lot of detail, I do care about what happens and don't even include descriptions that aren't physical. Should I rewrite my simple descriptions to be more complex and consistent with the rest of the script? I also want some critique on their grammar.

- Should I include an idea for panel layout? I thought me and my artist would brainstorm over it together but our interactivity might be limited.

- The setting is the future from our time. The world is flooded but patches of land remain and many artificial islands exist. Modern technology also exists but the world is dystopian. I thought I'd give an overview of my story and setting to my artist. Should I post it here as well?

- I do want to tie in Biblical references into my story. Though I am having trouble incorporating this verse into Izumi's design while being subtle. "A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". Any ideas?

Aside from that, give more criticism is always appreciated and I'll probably use this thread for my other comic pitches. Here are the new links (original post also updated):

Editable version https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UyQ49epWiQv-oNFURzMG9fCrmvVP2xZOBa2ObbZf2Bs/edit?usp=sharing

Read only version https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MM1wWrjOsLMqV3sr81SoNYvuv0Poy0TGCRCNAm42aTg/edit?usp=sharing

Character Physical Descriptions https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jA6Le9wMi-J2PO91T80_DtHPNoU28DzX44emkCmcbDQ/edit?usp=sharing

Edited by ParaChomp on Jul 26th 2018 at 10:03:43 AM

I read as well and I believe that you should try to flesh out the protagonists a bit more. They all felt dull and uninteresting for me because they all felt kinda the same apart from some lines of dialogue. I'd suggest you make some distinct personalities for characters like Aqua, Orlando and Izumi, so they can be both distinguishable and fleshed.

I do have personalities for them though but give me some examples on how I can apply it to my work. Where are these similarities present? How can I make them different?

Edited by ParaChomp on Jul 27th 2018 at 10:17:52 AM

Like; make Aqua the one who's a bit more approachable to others and likes to snark a bit but she wants to know more about the physical body. Orlando can be the serious type who seems like a pretty cold and unempathetic individual while Izumi can be a bit of a Genki Girl.

Luigisan is giving you some good advice there, I will second it.

"- I feel like Aqua would have her shark teeth exposed in the first two pages. The tarp in these pages is also too suspicious in contrast of trying to pass off as a cripple. How could I hide the fact that she's a mermaid but still show her captured in the first two pages? If not, what should I do?"

You know, I actually kind of not want you to change that. It amused me that these guys met her in a bar, wheeled her all around town, got through two fights with her, and never suspected that she wasn't human. The expressions on their faces are going to be gold.

- Some panel descriptions are more complex than others. I don't mind the simple ones and don't mind the artist interpreting it the way they please. The ones with a lot of detail, I do care about what happens and don't even include descriptions that aren't physical. Should I rewrite my simple descriptions to be more complex and consistent with the rest of the script? I also want some critique on their grammar.

- Should I include an idea for panel layout? I thought me and my artist would brainstorm over it together but our interactivity might be limited.

My advice regarding this is to go ahead and actually draw the pages on a piece of paper, panels and all. It doesnt matter how poor your artistic skills are, use stick figures and very basic foreground objects. You don't even necessarily have to share this with the artist, unless they want you to. But it will clarify your vision both for yourself and and anyone who reads the script, exactly what you are trying to do. It will force you to make decisions help you smooth out the pace a little bit. Comics are a visual medium, and it will help you to force yourself to think and plan visually, even if you are going to go ahead and let the artist make changes.

- The setting is the future from our time. The world is flooded but patches of land remain and many artificial islands exist. Modern technology also exists but the world is dystopian. I thought I'd give an overview of my story and setting to my artist. Should I post it here as well?

As your beta reader, I don't need to see it unless you are going to include it in the story. I dont think the artist needs it either, unless it's intended to inform the artistic style is some way. The proper way to do that is to include it in the page descrption. Sometimes there are "Notes to the Artist" that spell out things like what the inside and outdoor backgrounds should look like. General tech level, overall architectural styles, lighting for various scenes, stuff like that. Otherwise, I dont want to read it because it might influence how I interpret your script, and that defeats the purpose.

Character design is typically something the artist generates, with the author's feedback. In the comic projects that I have worked on, the artist reads through the script, works up some preliminary character sketches, and presents them for the author's approval and/or feedback. As the author, it will be helpful to put down some basic character traits for each of your four protagonists, but it's important to stay concise and visual. Your notes are to help inform the writing and the art, nothing more. That said—

"A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"

This is obviously important to you, but as an artist I would have no idea what this means. How does this inform how the character should look, move, speaks, confronts problems, etc.? I can't tell from this if she has a complex personality or a simple one, active or reactive, high energy or low. At a minimum, you should specify for each character their body type, their most typical facial expressions, their most salient personality characteristics, and some guidelines regarding how they move in various situations (taken from your story). Here is an intro to character design for graphic novels, which will contain a lot more info than you need right now, but which should be helpful for your development as an author (actually, the whole series is pretty good, I encourage you to read it from the beginning).

By the way, if you haven't read Scott Mc Cloud's Understanding Comics, you really really should.

Read all three of Mc Cloud's How To books. Took multiple courses offered by someone in the industry too. I'll take your advice, thank you.

Edit: You know, I think what I've been given is good enough for now. I'll reformat the script, touch up on the dialogue, and draw some beta sketches. While I take my time to fix up what you've said, I'll let someone else have the spotlight in this thread. Expect me to come here again.

Edited by ParaChomp on Jul 27th 2018 at 8:56:01 AM

Since Para Chomp has decided to end their turn earlier and with his blessing, I've sent a message to the next person on the list so they can have their work reviewed. That would be Luigisan 98.

Apparently they've been here before and, if I read it correctly, Luigisan found the previous critiques helpful. Hopefully it'll be the same this time around.

So...

Luigisan 98: July 28th, 2018

Transform!

Sorry I wasn't able to give your work a look Para Chomp. Next time.

Alright, so as I said, this is a revision from the original draft that I posted here with more content and scenes than ever.

https://www.wattpad.com/story/78626368-earth-warriors-undergoing-revision

Feel free to critique and I'll try to listen to every feedback that I can consider.

Also, if you're really interested in reading more of it, I even made a thread for my story here in TV Tropes for further reviewing and discussion if you like. (Sorry for self-advertising tho. )

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15242539060A18232200&page=1#1

That aside, I'm ready.

That's what I get for not waiting longer and being patient. Thank you very much, you can still private message me about it if you want to. Otherwise, I'm thinking of taking my time on the dialogue before giving it another go.

How long do our critique sessions last anyways?

I think it is two weeks generally.

That's a long time. I'll keep that in mind, thank you.

@Luigisan 98: Well, I see that you have extensively revised this work since the last time I read it, about three years ago now. I also notice that you seem to have taken my advice to heart—that is you invest a lot more of the story into introducing each character before getting to the main action. The story has more structure now, it reads more like a conventional novel would, which is all good. I think what you need the most work on at this point is your writing style: you do a lot of "telling" rather than "showing". In general, regardless of which style of narrative voice one uses, you should stick to describing things that someone could potentially see, then move to emotional reactions inside one or more character's head. Sitting on a bus, no one can see that they are on route 108 in California. Someone could, however, be looking out one of the bus's windows and see a roadsign go by that reads "Route 108". Do you see the difference?

Also, you use the passive voice too much. "Among the passengers was a tan-skinned man" is weak and listless. "The heavily tanned man slouched among the passengers" is stronger, and makes a more vivid impression on the reader.

Although I myself sometimes use the single sentence paragraph to heighten the emotional impact, I think you overuse it too much. It makes the narrative too choppy, and distracts the readers attention away from the story itself. Put things into cohesive paragraphs, and streamline everything down.

"His eyes are puffy, almost dull and distant, looking down."

"He looks at his iPhone, which dispays a photo."

Would be much more readable this way: "His puffy eyes looked distantly down at a picture on his iPhone..."

Finally, I would emphasize that using the present tense in a work of fiction is a tricky narrative form to pull off. I realize that it's trendy right now—has been for a while—but I confess that I don't feel comfortable with it. I think first time authors should generally stay away from it, unless they have a specific thematic reason for using it, but that's my own prejudice and you should make your own decisions. Here is a short essay on the subject. Here is another.

Good luck, it's a really good story, which you have invested a lot of time and energy into, and it shows.

Edited by DeMarquis on Jul 30th 2018 at 11:39:11 AM

Thank you for the feedback, it's been good to hear how much I've grown ever since last time I've shown this.

Oh, not sure if you know, but if you wish to discuss and critique more of EW...

This thread has been dead for over a month. How are things progressing?