Is the ideal society socialistic?

Have you not been here for the past 12 months? Does the phrase European debt crisis mean anything to you? And Merkel's government is neither strong nor really that right-wing.

Hasn't Germany basically dodged the crisis, and is still going strong? Just saying.

Still Sheepin'

The "strong right-wing government" who abolished the draft, closed down all nuclear reactors and is now in the process of introducing minimum pay? Or which is for that part most of the time more concerned with infighting and squabbling than with getting anything done unless there is great public outcry about it (like how it was about nuclear power)? Yeah... no. The current government is first at all incompetent - neither right-wing nor strong. If you have to classify it, though, it would be very centrist and moderate.

In general, though, Germany is a welfare state. Hell, we are the historical centre of public healthcare, what with Bismarck's laws about it. Germany took as much part in the construction of a welfare state Europe after WW 2 as any other state. The idea/term of the "social market economy" (Soziale Marktwirtschaft) was coined here. Germany is as much a welfare state as the Scandinavian states (well, maybe not as much anymore, but, eh...) and our unions are strong and well organized.

And yes - Germany is doing not too bad with that...

And Merkel herself is from the moderate wing of the party - and she completely dominates the party at the moment, so the other two wings, the social conservatives and the business liberals are marginalized. So, yeah, it's a very centrist government.

edited 28th Dec '11 11:57:12 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

See that's why I'm all for a Super AI run socialist-democracy. The Machines decide your pay based on your output.

Well, the point is that as successful countries trend towards capitalism, they undo their own success, as Europe is doing now with its string of Right-wing governments from Spain to Russia.

Well, as I said in another thread, as the older generations disappear newer generations like my own that never lived during the Cold War (I was born in 1995, for one) will take power, and we don't give a fuck about demagogues and their ramblings about the "Reds."

According to the Political Compass, Merkel's government is more Right-wing than Obama...

It just happens that Merkel is starting from a more Leftist position to begin with (again, a socialistic system trending capitalistic as it succeeds) and can't really touch a lot of things without losing popular support. They're much more Right-wing in their dealings with the rest of Europe, that's for sure.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

I don't read Marx-or Adam Smith-because I don't want my arguments to be their arguments.

Empirical evidence is one thing, but a priori knowledge shouldn't require the work of anyone else (in theory) to arrive at. If you simply say "well, person X said Y" then someone can say "well, person A replied with B."

I want people to be arguing with me-not Marx.

I respect both Smith and Marx for the enormous influence their works had on the world's economic systems. Smith more than Marx, as I feel like Marx's ideas did more harm than good. Nevertheless, neither is enitrely valid for the third millenium, so I would take them with a grain of salt, rather than just repeating their words.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

Political compass is all about what people say and their prorgams, though, isn't it? Unfortunately both Obama and Merkel are full PR whores / opportunists in nicer terms. Obama will promise just about everything and then don't actually do something, while Merkel has a lot of the usual conservative-liberal lines in her party program, but makes policy more based on what's popular at the moment.

So, yes, concerning election programs I have no doubt that Merkel is more right-wing than Obama. But in reality, in actual actions? Not so much...

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

They're both more Right than Left and they're both, along with all their fellow Rightists in Europe, mucking everything up. That's all I need to know.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Politcal C Ompass is a bad system leaning towards right liberterianism and Octo is right so this thread should end.

If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.

You may be confusing the Political Compass with the Nolan Chart, both of which are very similarly structured—four-quadrant grid, libertarian vs. authoritarian against left vs. right, etc.—but with very different leans as to their basic parameters.

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.

@Flyboy

"Well, the point is that as successful countries trend towards capitalism, they undo their own success, as Europe is doing now with its string of Right-wing governments from Spain to Russia."

I see, this is somewhat true, but there are numerous exceptions. Either way, I hope you're right about the viewpoints of the younger generation.

Edit: Hey, you were born in the same year as me!

@Earth Sheep

They're still feeling it, not nearly to the extent of, say Greece, but the effects are there.

edited 28th Dec '11 8:22:42 PM by stripesthezebra

Well, I'm not saying the new generations will go strike into pinko commie land, but they'll be much more open to trying things, rather than screaming "OH MA GAWD SOCIALISM" and acting like that's an actual argument against the system or elements/principles of it.

They won't be so biased, in other words.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Well what I think would be useful for Americans and other people is simply to travel to other places and experience them. I mean, whatever you want for your ideal society (equality, hedonism, communist, socialist, capitalist, libertarian etc), you need to actually go to places that more closely reflect your ideal and look at what it is like.

You like Libertarianism? Go to Hong Kong. Look at how 30% of people live in no more than a literal cockroach infested cage because you're part of the under-class.

You think universal healthcare has death panels? If you're American, just drive up north to Canada and spend a week talking with people to get a sense of what types of actual frustrations exist with a universal healthcare system.

You are afraid of high-tax countries? Go to France/Germany or any of the Nordic countries.

Worried about multiculturalism? Head on over to one of the various Chinatowns in Toronto.

Too bad there's no hedonist countries to visit.

edited 28th Dec '11 10:26:26 PM by breadloaf

Amsterdam... is a city, but presumably it's a close enough substitute to suffice...?

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

I was thinking that as well, though I have to say that prostitution in particular is not well designed for hedonism in my opinion but drug wise it's the most lenient.

I wouldn't say hedonism is a social value here so much as being able to do what you want so long as no gets hurt is. *shrug*

But, keep in mind, that a lot of us just don't have the money to go out of country. And as huge as this country is, if we want to travel it's much more cost efficient to just go somewhere else in our country.

You do realise the G in PIG stands for Greece, not Germany?

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.

Yes, of course.

Unfortunately, in recent years the Netherlands have really cracked down on foreigners enjoying their liberal drug laws. To be fair, they kinda have to due to foreign pressure... And as for prostitution, eh, that's legal in most in Europe. Hell, even regulated and unionized to a degree

Speaking of which, that's another things that could be included in breadloaf's list: Americans visiting Germany or the Nordic countries to see that strong unions are not a bad thing (Though for that purpose they maybe should not visit France or Italy, heh)

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Stupid US War on Drugs. Imma slap a bitch if they keep doing that. >_<

Yeah, my parents hate unions with a passion and I grew up with a distinct anti-union bias. One of these days I'll get around to France to validate my dislike of them the Nordic countries to see how to use unions properly.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

On another note, I think the while North Americans can stand to gain a lot by analysing the union structure of nordic countries (and also some healthcare policies in really poor countries help to see how you can deflect a lot of costs that you would otherwise just pay for in rich countries)... I think that Europeans could stand to learn quite a bit about multicultural policy by visiting North America. Europe's unique tinge to the problem is that they are close to refugee-spewing countries whereas North America is not, but even so, I notice a lot of policies that North America tried in the past and had them fail miserably. Europe's repeating those same mistakes.

@Re: All of you hailing the Nordic countries as the way forward:

The Nordic countries ain't as ideal as people make'em to be. In Denmark, for instance, you've gotta pay an 180% tax when you buy a car. (It's otherwise a quite decent country). If you wanna live in denmark, prepare to pay upwards of 30 grand to buy a Volkswagen Polo.

IIRC, in Sweden cops may subject random passersby to a drug test... and fine/arrest them if it comes up positive!!!

Iceland has just embarked on a crusade to eradicate dens of vice like strip clubs. Finland's got outrageous restrictions on booze. I'm not aware of any notorious Norwegian WTFs on that caliber, but still.

edited 29th Dec '11 3:30:09 PM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Cry me a river, Savage. It's still loads better than what we have now.

"Shit, our candidate is a psychopath. Better replace him with Newt Gingrich."

Norway actually has the highest booze tax of all Nordic countries. So, Norwegians go to Sweden to drink, Swedes go to Denmark to drink, and Danes go to Germany to drink

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Finns deal with the problem by being too drunk to go anywhere.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.