Clean-up/Clarification: Magnum Opus

Absolutely agree. You can validly say that. But it's not a trope.

edited 28th Dec '11 5:46:19 PM by rodneyAnonymous

What exactly is the objective perimeter you guys are using to determine what an author Magnum Opus is?

Yeah, this isn't a trope.

The Magnum Opus is not merely his "best" work, although it can be—it is the creator's largest and most magnificent. In scale and scope. Usually, this means that it's the longest or most expensive.

In fact, that's why I make the comparison between an Epic Movie and a Magnum Opus. An Epic Movie deals with humanity on a "grand" scale. According to whom? That is subjective. But that's what an Epic Movie is, simple a very "grand" movie. Ben Hur is nothing like Gone With The Wind, but they are both epics. They are supposed to be highly "ambitious" movies. Star Wars is an epic, but who could compare it with Cleopatra? It's the size, scale, scope, ambition of a film that lets you determine it. Similarly, a Magnum Opus is the greatest in size, scale, scope, and ambition of a creator's work.

All the dictionary says is that a Magnum Opus is "a great work; especially : the greatest achievement of an artist or writer". It says nothing about scope, scale, or size.

I don't what up with Epic Movie if there are issues with it's objectivity then it should be brought up in an another TRS thread, not this one.

Dictionary definitions are limited. Read the Wikipedia page.

There is no issue with objectivity with Epic Movie—that's my point. I am making the comparison between the two. Something may have subjective qualities and yet be an objective trope. After all, we have many morality tropes, but morality is a highly subjective view point. We just accept that there's a "common" version of morality and that's what we model our examples from.

edited 29th Dec '11 12:16:06 PM by helterskelter

Why would I trust Wikipedia (something that can be edited by anyone and their mom) over a dictionary?

I think we should just put up a crowner to decide on this.

edited 29th Dec '11 2:27:39 PM by captainpat

I don't think the Wikipedia definition*

^{"from the Latin meaning 'great work', refers to the largest, and perhaps the best, greatest, most popular, or most renowned achievement of a writer, artist, or composer.")}

edited 30th Dec '11 3:05:38 AM by rodneyAnonymous

The problem with making this objective is that different groups can hold an author to different ones.

Some people will say, for instance, Charles Dickens most famous work is Oliver Twist. Yet, in the past, Great Expectations might have held that record. But to another group, A Christmas Carol revitalised a dying holiday and has been adapted so many times it has its own trope.

And sometimes the author disagrees with public opinion, like Tolkien's preference of The Silmarillion and that guy who wrote Lord Of The Flies.

edited 30th Dec '11 6:06:16 AM by MangaManiac

Again, it's not simply his best work, but his biggest, most intricate work. You would compare the length, the time, the scope, and so on against his other works to compare.

This is probably a trope that is more importantly defined by the creator than anyone else, since it mostly is about the effort put in, which the creator knows more than anyone about. It's important to note that I would make the distinction between an author's "favorite" work, and the author's Magnum Opus. If an author wrote a small poem that was his favorite work, and compared it against a great, lengthy novel, the novel here would probably come out on top.

edited 30th Dec '11 6:45:53 AM by helterskelter

So how am I supposed to know just by the work itself how much "effort" an author put in to it, because if it's something that needs to be clarified by the author, then that's trivia territory.

Also, kinda some sources that are more authoritative, because I'm not trusting wisegeek's definition of Magnum Opus over oxford's or merriam webster's.

Edit: Magnum Opus Dissonance should probably be trivia.

edited 30th Dec '11 7:50:27 AM by captainpat

The dictionary tends to be more inclusive than exclusive. They also give definitions in only a sentence or two. Words that have many implications are usually glossed over like chav, or bourgeois. Both of those words have some specific connotations the dictionary doesn't really reference to.

As I said—length, time it took to research and write, or how long the author has been crafting it (for instance, The Silmarillion took much longer on the whole and is much more detailed and expansive than The Lord Of The Rings—it's actually a good example when "best and most famous" is not necessarily the Magnum Opus). Operas are usually good examples, since you can judge it on the scope of the sets, the number of actors, the amount of music and dialogue, as well as the length it took to write and compose.

Listen, whether you want it objective or not, it needs an extremely strict set of criterion which will essentially make it objective anyway, even if it has that YMMV tag.

edited 30th Dec '11 7:25:46 AM by helterskelter

I don't think anyone's disagreeing that we need to be extremely strict guidelines for this page. It certainly should not have authors that are still active. Still though, this isn't have a trope, it's an Audience Reaction.

I'd call Middle-Earth as a whole a Magnum Opus, instead.

No matter what, it doesn't belong on a main page. It's not something inherent in the work if it has to be compared to another work, so it's either trivia, YMMV, or Audience Reaction.

Ok, magnum opus: Ulysses or Finnegan's Wake? The Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings? David Copperfield or Our Mutual Friend? Critics way more qualified than me to make the distinction are not in agreement.

"Largest scope" or "took the longest to make" are not the only criteria. Those aren't even always the same work (e.g., above examples, the book that James Joyce spent the most time writing is not the book with the largest scope or most pages). Strict? Sure. "[E]ssentially make it objective"? No.

edited 30th Dec '11 4:21:49 PM by rodneyAnonymous

So as far as clean is concerned, would remove works from authors that are still active be appropriate?

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