General Star Wars Thread

What you term "competency" is irrelevant.

What matters here is power, and as far as raw force power goes, nothing in the galaxy's history rivals Anakin's.

Sidious playing fast and loose with Vader may break the mental shackles he has that keep him from becoming twice as powerful as Sidious and then murdering him. No amount of calm collectedness will make Vader triumph over his master, but the raw power he possesses as Anakin would manage to kill the old man.

Vader fights in the restrained way that he does because he has to. Anakin fought the way he did because he was powerful enough to be able to. He didn't need defense and patience; he could just use Djem So and his absurdly powerful connection to the force to overwhelm all his opponents.

edited 2nd Jul '15 11:25:05 PM by Cruherrx

Bullshit.

Sidious didn't get to be where he is by using lightning on everything. That's more of a hobby.

Sidious achieved his goals through ruthless planning and cunning.

I mean, taking Luke as his apprentice wasn't a bad plan.

Raw power has failed Anakin many times in the past.

The comic has established Sidious has a dozen replacements for Vader already in mind.

Okay, first, Vader's body was deliberately badly designed and unlocking some bullshit "mental shackles" crap won't fix his lightsaber fighting style any, nor make him immune to lightning, second, it didn't work very well on Obi-Wan, now did it?

Anakin couldn't kill Obi-Wan.

Vader could.

edited 2nd Jul '15 11:31:03 PM by unnoun

Vader killed an elderly Obi Wan who wanted to die.

Obi-Wan was killed by a crippled and burned Vader on life-support.

Vader has been forced to learn how to use skill, and cunning. Whatever "power" he might have lost, his actual effectiveness has increased tremendously.

I don't like the idea that Sidious has to be pandering to Vader all the damn time.

I like how harsh he is with Vader in these comics.

I think the writing of Kieron Gillen is automatically better than that of any hack not named Kieron Gillen.

Me and Cruherrx are never going to agree on this.

Or anything, probably.

I think Sidious being bored by a sales pitch for a replacement for Vader while Vader is fighting it out below is like the perfect way to write Sidious.

edited 2nd Jul '15 11:49:24 PM by unnoun

Luke would make a better Chosen One than Anakin, not only because he's more emotionally stable, but also because he's an All-Loving Hero.

It's Luke's compassion and his willingness to reach out to his father that leads to Vader suddenly growing a conscience again.

That's why Luke's one of my favorite characters ever.

EDIT: Also, I'm willing to bet that while Luke may have forgiven his father, the rest of the galaxy hasn't and that Vader's considered a monster by the rest of the galaxy at large. Hopefully we'll find out in Episode VII.

edited 2nd Jul '15 11:53:59 PM by higherbrainpattern

That is a fair point as far as it goes, but considering he's not the one who actually killed Palpatine, I don't think he can be the Chosen One. Not unless the act of killing Palps ISN'T what's being considered bringing balance to the Force. You could argue that balancing the Force actually refers to allowing the Light AND the Dark to live in Anakin. In which case, Anakin's not the Chosen One, he's the embodiment created by the Chosen.

Nobody knows what "bringing balance to the Force" means.

Wait, actually, according to George Lucas, it means "destroying the Sith." So Anakin does bring balance to the Force by killing ol' Sheev and then dying, but Luke enables him to destroy the Sith in the first place.

Dark side and Light side isn't "Fire vs Water" in terms of balance. It's "Puppies on fire vs Puppies not on fire."

edited 3rd Jul '15 12:29:42 AM by SonOfSharknado

@unnoun: (Matt Stover is the guy who wrote Traitor. And Shatterpoint. And the Revenge of the Sith novelization. And Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. He's one of the three best authors I can think of off the top of my head, possibly the very best.)

You know, for what it's worth, there was a special feature at the beginning of the Attack of the Clones VHS with Threepio and Artoo explaining how Anakin was the Chosen One even if his fulfillment of the prophecy wasn't liked how everyone had expected.

Anakin also needed Qui-Gon to have the intuition to recognize his potential, Obi-Wan to have the tenacity to train him, Mace Windu to alienate him from the Jedi, Palpatine to seduce him to the dark side and Padme to build a family that would both motivate his descent and eventually redeem him.

That's the tricky thing about prophecies, there is no single element in play that makes it happen.

edited 3rd Jul '15 1:40:41 AM by KJMackley

Quoting is tedious, so I'll address your points in numbered form.

1. Cool, but what does ruthless cunning and planning have to do with Sidious potentially pushing Vader too far and making Anakin come to the surface and wreck his shit?

2. Not seeing how that is at all relevant. Vader lacking power is why Sidious tries to replace him, and Vader gaining power means Vader would kill Sidious.

3. Sidious has always sought replacements for Vader, but here's the thing: they're always shit compared to Vader. Sidious knows Vader is his best tool, and losing Vader without a replacement at least equally as powerful to him would be a crippling blow to both Sidious and the Empire.

4. Shows how much you know about Vader. Same novel I quoted is what introduced the possibility that Sidious made the suit so shitty on purpose.

Anyway, Vader has to fight very economically and has created a custom fighting style designed around protecting his suit. To that end, he has adopted Obi-Wan's defensive lightsaber style, Soresu, into his fighting. Vader's lightsaber fighting style, which takes elements from all of them, has no gaps in it and is perfect.

Anakin, on the other hand, fights far more aggressively than Vader because he isn't a crippled man on life support. As for why he didn't kill Obi-Wan, he was running on dark side juju that amped his aggression and made him see only blood. Obi-Wan took advantage of this to beat him, despite being vastly outclassed.

Vader could defeat Obi-Wan because although he lost a significant amount of his power after what happened on Mustafar, he gained so much new shit: sith teachings, augmented mechanical strength, patience, a more refined fighting style etc.

Where Anakin used the force like a hammer, Vader used it like a scalpel. Now this is the really important part. Vader has to use it like a scalpel because his body is nowhere near as powerful as it was when he was Anakin, and his mental blocks keep him from becoming fully-immersed in the dark side.

To sum up all of this, Vader is 80% as strong as the Emperor. If Palpatine fucked up and made Anakin resurface, Vader could be as much as twice as strong as the Emperor. This goes back to Palpatine always being very careful in what he orders Vader to do, and sending him to Tatooine where so many Anakinisms are is detrimental.

Like, I don't get the point you're even trying to make. That Vader is the complete package while Anakin isn't? We all know that. The point you're arguing against with that is me saying Sidious would be more careful in what he assigns Vader to do. Do you see that what you're saying pretty much has nothing to do with what I'm saying?

Luke would not make a better chosen one than Anakin, because Luke would play the trope straight. Anakin completely flips it on its head. I'd argue wanting Luke to be the Chosen One is going against the point of Luke's character, even.

It's obvious GL looked at everything Luke was, and then made Anakin the opposite. Luke led a humble life, Anakin was a prodigy cruising through the galaxy. Luke's training was in tranquility and focused more on the spiritual and mental aspects of the force, Anakin's was in the chaos of the Clone Wars and he focused only on using the force for power.

Even their lightsaber forms show the differences between the two. Both are Djem So masters, but where Anakin adapted the hyper aggressive and taxing Ataru to supplement his Form V, Luke adopts the passive and defensive Soresu to strengthen his.

Luke is like Qui-Gon, while Anakin is Mace, basically.

Also, Luke's a pretty cool guy. Completely agree with you on that one.

edited 3rd Jul '15 4:01:31 AM by Cruherrx

Or you're wrong about everything and Anakin can't resurface because everything you're talking about comes from Legends.

I do not think Sidious should have to walk on eggshells around his half crippled, extremely lightning-vulnerable apprentice.

...I don't think "power levels" should be a thing in Star Wars, but especially not where the Sith are concerned.

A Vader ten times as strong in the dark side of the force would not lose vulnerability to lightning.

Anakin is and always was somebody Sidious could play like a damn fiddle.

...I mean, you can't even say the "luminous beings are we" thing because Dark Side. Not luminous at all. More the opposite of that.

Like, in a thing for a new cartoon the creators mention the Sith being very afraid of dying because they aren't Jedi. They can't really become one with the Force.

Maybe Vader literally can't use the force as well with his new body.

Anakin couldn't either because he'd still be a Sith. Or at least on the Dark Side.

edited 3rd Jul '15 6:47:25 AM by unnoun

Eh, even Lucas said that the Sith, one on one, are MORE POWERFUL than the Jedi. The problem is that they are more unstable and easier to flip off-balance. And yes, power levels are a thing damnit. That's why Yoda could absorb Force Lightning bare handed without harm while others couldn't. If Vader lost that niggling conscience that lies dormant in the back of his head, he'd be able to tap into that power over time, with the right training, and be able to kill off Palpatine.

And you know, by his own words, Palpatine really seems to WANT that. Or at least did. Who knows what the fuck these Disney folks are going to do to the canon.

ETA: And, um, no. I don't know where they got the Fear of Dying thing from. Sith Force Ghosts are a thing, even in the new canon. Darth Bane proves that one.

edited 3rd Jul '15 7:50:49 AM by Journeyman

The reason Yoda gives for sending Obi-Wan after Anakin was that the Emperor was too powerful. I feel like Anakin would have had a long way to go before he was really ready to challenge his master.

That's a very Jedi-like perspective.

Not very Sith-like.

I think Darth Bane was partly a force vision thingy as opposed to being still 'alive'.

Also, Tarkin's in charge.

Different interview thingy.

I feel like Sith "ghosts" like Bane and such are more like. Impressions. Visions.

edited 3rd Jul '15 8:25:28 AM by unnoun

Did you read Tarkin?

...I haven't gotten around to it.

edited 3rd Jul '15 8:49:03 AM by unnoun

Man, you just can't keep focused, eh?

This started because I said the comic was dumb for doing this and that the old canon handled it better.

Sith force ghosts are completely unlike Jedi ones. Sith FG are bound to a single object or place and suffer for all eternity, as opposed to being at peace with the force.

I know that's what you think.

And I think the comic does better because I don't think just becoming more powerful and less competent would make Vader a threat to Sidious, and I don't think Sidious should feel the need to cater to Vader so much.

I think the comic understands the characters better than the stories you talk about ever did.

And also because. Sidious is a Sith. If his apprentice does manage to supplant him that would just be the natural order of things.

edited 3rd Jul '15 9:16:43 AM by unnoun

...

What?

How would Vader become less competent? You think because his mental shackles are broken he'd regress and forget near 20 years of lessons he's learned? What kind of "logic" is that?

Look, neither of you are ever going to agree on this. The only thing you seem to be able to agree on is that Anakin sucked.

You're the one who kept saying he'd become Anakin.

I don't know what "shackles" you're talking about.

I think of Anakin as a reckless dumbass who kept getting in trouble.

He'd usually get out of it, but not getting in it in the first place would have been better.

The tool serves its master, else it's no tool, and its master is no master.

A servant might make demands of his master, but I don't think Palpatine respects Vader nearly that much

"He'd become Anakin"

Yes, he would. Darth Vader is a tool the emperor created that shoulders the guilt and regret of stuff that happened at the end of episode 3. Anakin, however, is a powerhouse free of all that guilt, regret and despair. Sending him to places where his inner Anakin may come out is pretty dumb.

For all Palpatine knows, going to Tatooine triggers force visions in Vader that makes him hallucinate and see his mother, or maybe seeing Owen and Beru sparks something, or maybe his old slave master etc.

I don't really care either way, but if the thread's tired of this, I'm sure I can find another Vader-related subject to blather on about.

Anakin is also very much a slave to anger and arrogance.

And I'm not sure Sidious would mind his apprentice actually having the balls to try to replace him. It's the way of the Sith. The nature of the Rule of Two.

What he'd mind is if his apprentice failed.

It was a punishment for Vader's failure on the Death Star.

And, well. It didn't have that effect.

Finding out who Luke was is what had that effect on Vader.

In possibly the most effective Vader scene in any medium. I had chills, man.

edited 3rd Jul '15 10:05:08 AM by unnoun