new namespace access method

@ Some of the above questioning (in particular to Westrim): Fast Eddie tends to not warn, debate, discuss, inquiry or otherwise test potential acceptance of any sort of large-scale change in the wiki. It's one of the areas of his (in-site) personality he still has to work to improve (a lot) in terms of trust.

As for the namespaces with issues — are multi-word namespaces that are causing it, or is it unrelated? They've been the cause of other weird problems when dealing with namespaces and related pages.

As for new v/s old, the only reason I liked the old system more was that the icons made it easily recognizable (as for opening new tabs, the sidebar can has do it). Due to not wasting extra content space, at the moment the sidebar is my preferred implementation.

Sorry to be a downer, but I really don't like this new system. It's hard for new users to find, you can't open new tabs from it, and the links don't even work yet! I agree with the idea of making it optional.

But... the buttons took up two, maybe three, lines of text...

I like that it finds namespaces that don't have their own tabs, but as an interface it's clunky, visually unappealing, and requires additional effort from the user.

It seems like it would be better as a supplement to the tabs than as a replacement.

Maybe we could make an option or something. I personally prefer the old method.

I think a proper crowner is in order.

My biggest objection to the change was the lack of ability to open new tabs; however, with the sidebar feature, that has been fixed.

I also like that it shows standard namespaces that are not necessarily populated. However, I really liked the new implementation with the buttons that allowed me to see at a glance which pages actually had text. Would it be possible to implement something similar for the sidebar and/or dropdown menu?

My other main concern with the new setup is visibility of the subpages (as has been mentioned by others before). The buttons, while perhaps less than elegant (I didn't mind them), were at the least quite visible, even to new users. The new options, on the other hand, are merged in with the navigational links. While that does, in many ways, make sense (they are navigational), it also makes them easy to miss. I know that before I started edited regularly and became acquainted with the tools list, I barely paid attention to the sidebar unless I wanted a trope index.

As has been mentioned before, many subpages (such as YMMV, Discussion, Trivia, and Characters) really need visibility so that new or irregular editors realize that they are there and supposed to be used.

And will TRS and IP thread tags still display at the top of the article?

EDIT: Also, after doing a random check of 25 pages using the "Random" button, 11 out of 25 pages currently have the merged format, and 14 out of 25 only have the new format. Not sure if that's a glitch or not.

edited 14th Nov '11 2:44:16 PM by Nocturna

I'd suggest, as I said before, to Take a Third Option instead.

That is, icons and drop-down menu, side by side, à la Classic and Modern Sonic.

It won't hurt, To Say the Least.

I still don't see why this was done in the first place. If it wasn't for the way this has broken many of the namespaces, I wouldn't care one way or another, but as someone said earlier, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It might not matter to me, but this clearly upset enough people that I'm puzzled as to why it was thought a good idea.

Huh... personally, I love the new system. Looks much less cluttered, and it also makes it more clear what you're clicking on, for those who aren't old hands at this place.

My only feedback would be that I think it works better on the left side rather than the right, but that's probably just personal preference.

As a side note, though, it was odd to me how it took place, because it happened shortly after I clicked to see the YMMV page for Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro Chan, meaning I thought something ate the various subpages when I hit the back button to see the main page again.

@Fast Eddie: I have firefox 8 and the pulldown menu does not have hold for existing subpages as you stated it should. The list is all plain text making it difficult to navigate since you are just as likely to bring up a blank page as one with material.

As a side note. Why was this change implemented in the first place, was there a deficiency in the old system? And why would such a change be implemented without first testing by known tropers to work out bugs in the system or at least run by the community for input?

I'm mainly curious about why this change was implemented in the first place; as far as I can tell, there weren't any complaints about the tab system.

And add me to the group that's calling for a crowner; there should have been one to determine if people were in favor of the change, or at the very least it should have been announced earlier to give people time to discuss how it would affect everything.

The new systems isn't really bad, but

1. It wasn't announced until it was already implemented

2. It's still uber buggy

It might be fine when the bugs are worked out, but as it is now, the old system is superior in almost every way except for clutter.

edited 14th Nov '11 2:45:57 PM by JapaneseTeeth

Actually there were complaints about the tab system being cluttered and such.

Oh, that's where the sidebar is. Under the ad on the left, which likely involves scrolling down.

This is still cluttered as soon as you run into redirects, then the number of subpages can lead to a Wall of Text-type scenario.

edited 14th Nov '11 2:46:41 PM by RainehDaze

Me too. A crowner is needed.

edited 14th Nov '11 2:46:44 PM by AlexSora89

Is a crowner really necessary? I think this is a "color of the toolshed" problem. And personally, I like that the tools have been organized more neatly, regardless of the color.

Also supporting a crowner. It wouldn't need to decide anything in and of itself, but would seem useful just to see how popular various viewpoints on this are.

(And how do you make a crowner, anyway?)

@Ironeye: Where were those complaints made? I don't remember seeing any.

Forum threads. Don't recall if it was Wiki Talk or Tech Wishlist.

With regards to the cronwer, it is wanted, but not needed. There is a difference.

I'd support a crowner to measure acceptance of this change, as well as measure annoyance at Fast Eddie having it pushed without warning. I'd also support a crowner to determine if the new system will stay via dropdown and/or sidebar, but I guess that'll be solved easily when the dropdown is moved to the sidebar.

Things people want, in general, but aren't include practically everything you can name. Like all graphics. Plain text with links would function fine for all intents and purposes as well as reducing server load and such but no-one would want it.

@Silent Reverence: That's the case now and some times before, but it also happens in a broader sense with the forums, which have many times before discussed, agreed upon, and implemented an action before anyone who only looked at the site knew what was happening. I dislike the feeling of different classes within the community of this website (mod powers accepted of course, that's policing).

I first noticed that this had happened looking at the Battle Los Angeles page, whose drop down list had the same malfunction others have mentioned of going to the main page for the subpage type, not the subpage itself. Refreshing it over and over has the old set appear and disappear, with no pattern.

This. Really, can't we have a crowner? A sizable number of people want it, and there doesn't seem to be any harm in it. We could have options for keeping the pulldown system, reverting to the button system, having both simultaneously, being able to switch between them as a profile option, etc. And, again, how does one make a crowner, do you need to be a mod?

edited 14th Nov '11 2:58:57 PM by enviroguy

How about both?

I can't find it in the FAQ so it's either a mod tool or the respective thread is somewhere else. From what I've seen a crowner is somehow created, then the thread is hollered to that a mod attached the crowner to the thread.