Ongoing European Debt Crisis

And those treaties will destroy Europe. Take your pick.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Europe was built on those treaties. You can't just ignore them.

edited 12th Oct '14 10:20:14 AM by Zarastro

Germans referring to him isn't really the problem (although that's also weird). It's more other people bringing him up to browbeat German policies that feels like creepy subconscious jingoism. Not that Germany isn't being stupid at the moment, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth is all I'm saying.

"Fuck yo treaties, y'all need(ed) a fiscal union up in this bitch or yo ass is grass." - Contemporary translation of Krugman's stance.

Europe will burn on those treaties. An unwillingness to revise or ignore the ones causing the problems is going to end up killing the Europe project. Revising/ignoring them probably is bad (and politically impossible), but so is not revising/ignoring them.

It's a Catch-22.

"Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus", indeed. May Europe find the courage and resolve to head to a bright future, and may Europe find a way through the maze of thorns that is the treaties that will otherwise become its grave.

It's not even Hitler, Europe has a long history of the rest of Europe fearing a strong Germany, and Germany smashing everyone when they get strong, and then Germany gets a boot to the face and smashed to pieces.

Fiscal Union and probably surrender partial control of the national economies to the federal level. Probably wrong on the latter, but I swear there's something else besides a lack of a fiscal union that makes Europe boned atm, and one of those is each member state is allowed to do w/e with its economy.

edited 12th Oct '14 10:40:45 AM by PotatoesRock

Europe always ganked up on the possibly hegemon. Charles V, Louis XIV and Napoleon had to make this experience too.

Which means based on the habit/pattern of "boot to the facing" the hegemon of the time, if Berlin doesn't take the blame, it'll be Brussels that will take the boot to the face.

Lovely.

edited 12th Oct '14 10:43:14 AM by PotatoesRock

Doesn't matter anyway. Sooner or latter, we are all going to get annexed by Russia.

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.

My basic problem with the German position is this, why should the rest of Europe suffer because the German's have issues with inflation? Why is the German fear over inflation more important that the economies of the entire bloody Euro zone?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

@ Potatoes Rock: And Britain has always attacked the possible hegemon. Balance of Power.

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So in this case, since they're not attacking Germany, Brussels would be "The Hegemon", if this running logic follows.

Double lovely.

The better question is why should Germany accept higher inflation at all. Since Germans are statistically more likely to have their money on banks instead of investing it in houses this is going to hurt us more?

Well, we're certainly making life difficult.

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Because you're supposed to be part of an experiment that transcends nationalism — an experiment in European unity. You joined an economic union, you joined a common currency, and those are good steps, but they aren't enough.

Also, Germany would share in the benefits of a revitalized Eurozone, as its trading partners would be able to buy more German stuff.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Krugman cites Wolfgang Munchau of the Financial Times: The German Economy is essentially wearing the equivalent of an economic fat suit: Germany's domestic economy isn't doing that well in all actuality, and is only at full employment thanks to its gigantic trade surplus that it has yet to burn off. Take away the trade surplus and Germany would be in full blown secular stagnation: A lack of adequate capital investment and spending that prevents the actual possible full health of the economy.

(Note: The Fat Suit comment is mine, basically Germany looks like one thing but is actually another.)

edited 12th Oct '14 10:15:46 PM by PotatoesRock

And the average German citizen's opinion on all this is...?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

August Figures Show Largest Decline Since the Months Following the Collapse of Lehman Brothers

Clone Zarastro a few million times.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

" An ‘atomic bomb’ is hovering over France’s economy"

http://goo.gl/3R4Tpa

I guess that like the article suggests, there'll be a way for all sides to save face. Still it will be interesting to see have Brussel will use its' new powers.

@Fighteer: You might not believe me, but I used to be (and to a certain extent I still do) someone who believed in the EU and the European project. I am proud how Germany played her part in creating and shaping the EU and I still hope that the Euro survives. Nothing would make me happier than knowing that future historians would say that Germany helped to save the Euro.

However during the last few years I've been disillusionized due to many factors (corruption and incompetence of many (not all) Southern European politicans, lack of progress in implementing structural reforms, rampant Germanophobia et al.) but perhaps most importantly I want Germany to act like any other European country. It has been the norm since 1945 that Germany pursuits its interests in Europe less open than her European friends, it was normal that Germany would "bribe" other countries in order to gain a consens a disputed topic. It was widely accepted by the German post-war generation that Germany was morally responsible for the success of the European project. But now things have changed, now people question the value of the EU for Germany and while I still think that the Euro and the EU is still worth fighting for, I don't want to see decisions made on idealistic convictions alone. Because I know that this won't be enough to convince the majority aymore.

Besides considering how many people already complain about the "Eurocrats" and how they try to grab more and more power, violating European treaties (even if it was possible to get away with it) could be catastrophic in the long turn.

" Clone Zarastro a few million times." I guess so more or less. With one important difference perhaps. Probably due to my age I have no nostalgic feelings for the Deutsche Mark and although I know from my studies just why Germans are so devoted to it, you won't find me saying that earlier everything was better.

I usually try to illustrate not only my opinion, but only what my believe is many Germans think even when I disagree. Perhaps I should make the latter more clearly in the future.

edited 14th Oct '14 6:05:54 AM by Zarastro

I guess that is why the AfD is doing well?

edited 14th Oct '14 6:21:53 AM by Greenmantle

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That article on France has a grossly misleading headline. It's not an "atomic bomb"; it's more like a wet firecracker. It is, however, symptomatic of the fact that austerity politics are still alive and well in the Eurozone with no sign of anyone with any influence admitting or even contemplating the possibility that they are wrong. In fact, anti-austerity, pro-Keynesian voices seem to be getting suppressed so effectively that the only ones we hear are coming from outside the Eurozone, or from institutions like the ECB which seem to be getting completely ignored.

Germans as a whole are doing an excellent job of shoving their heads in the sand and pretending that they know how to run an economic union.

edited 14th Oct '14 7:43:03 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Europe Now Consists Of Two Factions: Germany, And Everybody Who Disagrees With Germany

This is pretty much a review of the last week or so of criticism against German economic policy.

That criticism has been ongoing for a while. Germany is circling the wagons to oppose all criticism.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Then again, the Euro has been a project (West) Germany has been seriously working on since 1969-70 ^note  The ERM (Exchange Rate Mechanism) — which the UK crashed out of in 1992 — was a precursor to the Euro.

In fact, it's a dream older than the EU itself.

edited 14th Oct '14 8:22:17 AM by Greenmantle

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And they half-assed it and are paying the price for their refusal to accept a more complete union.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

More like the people wouldn't accept a closer European Union — it's been hard enough for the Eurocrats to get where they are today.

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