The Judge William Adams Controversy- Child-Smacking and You

Haven't seen the video? Take a minute to watch it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVil0y3kUu4

For those of you who can't watch the video, it shows an obviously angry man lashing his then sixteen-year-old daughter on the legs and buttocks twenty times with a leather belt for illegally downloading music and games. He also makes a few disturbing remarks. The entire thing is captured on a camera hidden under a scarf.

Now, before I get to the point of this thread, I'd like to let you guys know that I don't want us to end up simply talkng about how horrible the video or beating was, or how angry and disgusted you are. If you're angry about the topic, take a moment to chillax, and then post. That's what got the last thread on this subject gassed before it actually got anywhere.

What I want to know, tropers, is what you personally think about the controversy; if you think that either the Judge or internet overreacted, and if you believe spanking a child is a healthy part of rearing a child.

Parents are encouraged to post; I'm especially interested in what you have to say.

And please, guys, let's not lynch anybody for their views, huh?

I'm against spanking in any form. Even soft taps. All it does is encourage fear. It doesn't teach growth. Kids don't learn to do something because its not the right thing to do, they do it out of fear of being hurt.

Also.

That was not spanking. That was a beating.

edited 9th Nov '11 10:22:24 AM by Thorn14

The judge didn't "overreact". The judge was simply plain in the wrong to begin with.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

There's a difference between smacking a child and outright abusing them. My parents smacked me when I was younger, and I don't have an issue with it, but this is on a different level. Lashing a child with a belt is not OK. However, one or two smacks that do not cause any actual damage or lasting pain would be OK with me.

edited 9th Nov '11 10:33:45 AM by ArlaGrey

Hmm... It looks like you guys somehow got the idea that I'm sticking up for the judge, or that I'm trying to minimize what he did in some way. Let me just say that that's not the case; I'm just trying to sound neutral so that I don't get lynched by either side.

I mean, imagine if I'd asked "Do you you think that that filthy, filthy, disgusting pile of crap is an abusive stain?" instead. This thread'd turn into a one-sided bile-fest in no time flat.

edited 9th Nov '11 10:35:46 AM by DisasterGrind

I was really just offended by the insinuation that parents who smack their children are the same as parents who lash them with belts. You probably didn't mean that, but it came across that way.

edited 9th Nov '11 10:36:50 AM by ArlaGrey

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm asking a question, and then asking for your opinions on a related topic.

Yeah, but it probably wasn't the best example for this topic. I didn't think you actually meant it to come across how it did... but it did. What the judge did was abuse. I don't view just smacking as that.

And that's what I did, providing my opinion. I just thought your question was formulated a bit too narrow. Saying the judge overreacted kinda implies a honest mistake, and that seems very much more to me than just a honest mistake.

IMO, any form of physical violence against children as punishment should be forbidden. Light taps... well, can happen and can be forgiven. But I wouldn't say they're right. Still, that Adams guy went far, far beyond that anyway. What he did is abuse.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Utterly opposed to it. My mother used smacking liberally when I was younger, and she did it as publically as possible so as to maximise the humiliation. She figured that it would act as a detterent - doing something wrong meant physical pain and total humiliation. I even had my mouth washed out with soap for swearing on two occasions.

I'm pretty sure that my social anxiety (I'm often afraid to so much as speak to people for fear of at best being shouted at) is, while partially being caused by Aspergers, pretty heavily to do with the above. I would never, ever do such a thing to my kids. The line between legitimate punishment and full on abuse is a fine one in this case; I don't for one second consider my mother abusive, she was anything but. Just a bit too traditionalist in her use of disciplinary methods, and it's cost me.

Utterly wrong these days.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

My parents tended to smack me in private, so as not to make a scene, which is probably why I'm more favourable towards it; it was just a little bit of pain, nothing lasting.

edited 9th Nov '11 10:47:43 AM by ArlaGrey

"I just thought your question was formulated a bit too narrow. Saying the judge overreacted kinda implies a honest mistake, and that seems very much more to me than just a honest mistake."

Look, I'm sorry I worded the question too narrowly. There. Can we get back on topic please?

I mean, Jesus, what's wrong with a little neutrality? I asked if the Judge or the internet overreacted, I didn't ask if he made an honest mistake. I'm not implying anything. I'm trying to be neutral, because I want people to come into this not having to defend themselves in their first post.

Again, I'm sorry for everything wrong with my wording, and I hope I never offend you ever again.

edited 9th Nov '11 10:52:50 AM by DisasterGrind

Corporal punishment is legal here in Texas. That said, there's a difference between corporal punishment and outright abuse.

What that judge did was outright abuse.

Uhm, I, uhm, wasn't offended... sorry if it came across that way...

Uh, anyway. Yeah. We do seem to have a rather broad anti-corporal punishment consensus here. Good, heh.

As for me - hm, I kinda disagree with . Corporal punishment as such was never part of me being raised, but, uh, three or four times my mother's hand slipped, as they say. And I do think being slapped is humiliating even without audience. Because it's... how to say... it violates your bodily integrity, if that makes sense? That is, gets you even at such a fundamental level. Even if it isn't anything really bad, physically. Uh, I hope it is understood how I mean it.

edited 9th Nov '11 10:56:40 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

I understand what you meant. I just didn't find it particularly bad. Obviously, I was upset at the time, but they didn't smack me unless I was already being pretty naughty and would have been upset whatever they did, and it hasn't had any lasting effect on me.

That said, I do know a couple who, while not going to this man's level, are a bit overboard with their smacking. As in, they take their kid out of the room, and then you hear the smack through the closed door. That's too hard.

I'd say that parents have gone overboard when it leaves a mark too. And using a weapon is just wrong.

edited 9th Nov '11 11:13:25 AM by ArlaGrey

I was never once hit by my parents and I'm extremely glad for the fact.

I think it does more damage than good.

Parents can't rely on physical harm as the sole punishment for teaching kids lessons. All it does is make the kids fearful and put them in a state of panic. You're a parent. You're one of the few things a kid has that they instinctively trust to lean on when they're afraid of something. If they can't come to you because they're afraid they'll get in trouble for screwing up, then where do they turn?

I've been slapped around by my parents. Some of it was deserved, other times, not. It's really bent up my relationship with my mom, and while my dad did less smacking than her, I've almost completely lost connection with my father. When my mom realized I can fight back and that she can't just slap me around, fully aware that I'm stupid enough to run out the door and never come back, she stopped.

It's not healthy to hit your kids in any fashion. Take away their things, make them do chores, but by God, you can not hit your child and still say you love them, expecting your kids to suddenly be OK with it.

What the judge did was awful. Even though the girl clearly broke some rules of the house, she doesn't deserve to be beaten like that. The father, and mother too, really, have some huge mental problems if they think that's perfectly fine. You think your kid is resisting because they just don't want to be punished? Because they want to get away from your "lesson?" No, your girl was turning away and resisting because she was afraid for her life.

Stuff like that makes me realize that some people have a vastly definition of what is "spanking" from each other. Some think of spanking as an open-palm firm slap to the behind, others like the judge think its full out bashing your kid. So when I hear people say "oh yeah I support spanking," I have no idea if they mean "weak little slaps" or "busting out a belt and whipping them." And I think that's really part of the problem: this is a private activity, and no one really wants to talk about themselves spanking their child, so we have no clear cut definition of what is too much or too little. We basically do what our parents did to us, give or take a few levels of roughness.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior

I was never spanked as a child, though some other forms of corporal punishment were used (though only a couple of times, and my parents have said that they wish they hadn't done even that.) When debating this issue with a friend who had been spanked quite often as a child and thought it was the correct way to discipline a child, I came up with an argument that went something like "fear and respect are incompatible when it comes to human relations."

I can't imagine how one could have respect for someone that they also fear. No one should take it for granted that anyone hold an abnormal amount of respect for them unless the respect is deserved, and if you cause someone to be afraid of you, you're certainly not acting in a respectable way.

Now, that might have something to do with the fact that I'm a pacifist.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

I'm a parent, and I occasionally spank my oldest (who's five). Usually only twice or three whacks on her butt. That or I finger-flick her on the head to get her attention if she's not responding to what I'm saying to her. Attention-getter, works pretty well, and all she does is say "ow" and starts to pay attention. Sometimes, just the motion of my hand reaching for her head is enough to get her to pay attention and I abort and begin to tell her what it was I had been trying to tell her prior to that. Spanking is not the end-all and be-all of punishment; I often pair it with other things if I feel that the other thing may not be sufficient, or forego it altogether.

"Hey, kid. Hellooooo? You hearing me?" Finger-fleck to the head. "Okay, now that I have your undivided attention, do/don't do x, y and z."

I reserve spanking for when she willfully disobeys, as a promise of punishment, or if she hits her little sister. "You hit your sister, and I will spank you. Understand?" Is that a fear tactic? You better believe that it is - fear that if she does wrong, she will be punished. Society is like this. I continue to tell her repeatedly that if she does right, she will be rewarded - do this and this, and she can have ice cream before bedtime, or we can go watch My Little Pony together or go pretend camping or something that she enjoys doing. As she grows older, I find that I can get fancier with the mental aspects of discipline and resort less on pain, as she gains understanding. If she breaks/spills soemthing, I can now tell her to clean it up, for example.

I make it clear that spanking is impending and that I may use it if she doesn't straighten herself out. However, there are other disciplinary tools available that I find work as well for her. Putting her at the position of attention (military style) seems to help, as does taking away priveledges, no sweets, going to bed early, no MLP, we're not going to pretend together now, going to her room for a time out, and things like that.

I do not spank the youngest, who's one - she won't understand it, so it won't work. Simply saying NO in a stern voice seems to do wonders. The oldest child is different, as she seems to suffer from selective hearing loss and I have to repeat myself a bunch to get her to acknowledge what I'm trying to say. When the oldest was one, saying "No" didn't deter her from reaching out for things we didn't want her to mess with (that we couldn't move or hide from her - there is no such thing as a fully child-proofed house), so I'd give her a light wrist-slap across her hand. That worked. She's different than her younger sister.

All that said, all I use is my open hand. I don't think it's needed to use a belt, or a slipper or a wooden spoon or anything.

I also do not resort to spanking as a knee-jerk response (my knee-jerk response is usualy raising my voice). Spanking while angry is bad news. And if your hand stings after giving them a spanking? You did it too hard.

Now, what you will do as a parent is your business, as long as it's not abuse or neglect. If you can manage to do that without laying a finger on them, good for you. But not all disciplinary techniques work prefectly for every child.

I have to add:

The oldest loves nothing more than to play with me, be it coloring together, drawing letters, playing a simple game, or playing pretend. Heck, we even play Minecraft together. She doesn't fear me. The goal is that she will fear the consequences of doing wrong. I think it's more or less working, as she doesn't cower in fear when I'm around. (indeed, oftentimes I have to tell her that I'm tired or whatever and that I can't play with her, and she goes away sad.)

edited 9th Nov '11 12:24:12 PM by pvtnum11

Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.

See thats where I disagree. One shouldn't fear the consequence of doing something wrong, they should know that its just wrong.

You aren't teaching them that its wrong to do the wrong thing, just not to get caught.

If you have to spank a child that hard then they're not responding to spanking and you should try other methods of punishment.

I was fine with the discipline. I don't understand the controversy.

Please.

Thorn, kids don't learn right and wrong without moral conditioning. That's how child psychology works. Now, it's debatable whether or not spanking and such is necessary to this, but some kind of punishment/reward system is.

I think parents should have the right to do such things, but within reason. This was not "within reason," in my opinion.

Now, ideally, a good parent seldom needs to use such things, but this is not an ideal world.

USAF713 on his phone or iPod.

Isn't any punishment teaching the child to fear the consequences? Just from dealing with my nephew I know that simply telling a child that what they're doing is wrong does not tend to work (not with my nephew, anyway).

You don't learn right and wrong without first understanding the fear of why you don't do anything.

You don't learn sticking your hand on a hot stove iron is wrong by simply saying "Don't do that, it's wrong". The kid will still try. But when the kid burns his/her hand on the hot stove for the first time he/she will come to fear the hot stove and learn not to do that.

In simple terms, it's punishment vs reward. Fear punishment, work towards reward.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."