Good Guy Lucifer

Sorry, Gannetwhale the facts do not support that assertion. Two out of three people are not christian. There may be isolated countries where 80% are christian. The would be catholic nations in South America. The mix in the States is about 65%.

edited 2nd Nov '11 11:59:05 AM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

77% of Canadians are christian. To put in perspective, Canada is considered among the most secular nations.

84% is the general average among southern and eastern european nations.

The only places that don't have a christian or a muslim majority in the western world are a few european countries and the odd commieland like Cuba.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult

It's obvious that God is the one that is getting the Draco in Leather Pants treatment. It's obvious that he's a douche.

edited 2nd Nov '11 11:57:15 AM by PinkHeartChainsaw

"If there is a hole then it's a man's job to thrust into it" - Ryoma from New Getter Robo

This is a ll kind of insignificant, but an interesting digressions. What are the sources? I was looking here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

That source does indeed indicate that Christianity and Islam are the dominant faiths globally, so the point still remains.

Curiously, it does say that Xianity is supposedly declining, which seems to disregard the current studies indicating Mormon expansion.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult

Both are getting their fair share...

edited 2nd Nov '11 12:02:11 PM by kay4today

Can we keep this discussion on a more sophisticated level? It's certainly not "obvious that God is a douche."

If you want to argue that the Supreme Being is evil, either purely or supremely good and evil both, that's another matter. It would have to start with the ontological status of the ideas "good" and "evil".

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

As a character in a story, it is very observable that God Is Evil, given that through the OT and Revelation he not only commits casual genocide, but actually does things that make him severaly morally ambiguous.

As a being in the real world, it is extremely hard to tell his motives given how he doesn't explicitly reveal them.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult

You have a point. I'm just over reacting. More than likely the christian god is an Anti Villian of some sorts. Wanting people to believe in him because he thinks of himself as being inferior and less cool then Zues or something.

edited 2nd Nov '11 12:42:42 PM by PinkHeartChainsaw

"If there is a hole then it's a man's job to thrust into it" - Ryoma from New Getter Robo

Zeus was a serial rapist.

Untitled Power Rangers Story

Does anyone else find this funny? http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Commentary/Luciferianism.htm

Ok, let's see. If I am not mistaken, in post 44 (which has been thumped now, I dunno why — perhaps because of the reference to fundamentalism?), Gannetwhale asked me what I think is the power that the devil still has on Earth.

Well, to begin with, because of the Original Sin gambit, he has managed to corrupt human nature, and, indirectly the nature of the world itself — even though it is still fundamentally good, it is not as it was intended to be.

Then there is the ability to tempt: a seriously nasty one, if you take in consideration that the beings that use it are older and far more intelligent than a human being could possibly be.

And finally, there is the possibility of direct devilish interventions — you know, possessions and all that jazz. I know that it sounds quite medieval to still consider that possibility nowadays, but that does not mean that it isn't true. The Catholic Church still trains exorcists, after all, and, in my opinion at least, that's a Very Good Idea. Still, these phenomena are rare: after all, showing his cards is usually not as convenient at for the devil as keeping people unsure of his own existence — I'm not going to cite the Screwtape letters, but you get what I mean.

Then, there is the matter of the followers. To begins with, it must be said that Gods Need Prayer Badly is not, and never has been, a doctrine of Christianity. The power of God does not increase or lessen depending on the number of His followers, and neither does the power of the devil*

. It is true that Christians are very numerous nowadays, and I am of course happy of this; but Jesus never said that if enough people became Christian then everything would be hunky-dory. He promised tribulations, and He said that He would take care of humans, and He said that His followers they were going to screw up horribly, or die horribly, or both. He said that everything would eventually end up alright, true; but He also said that it'd be long and difficult and unpleasant.

It's one thing for one person to say that they are opposing Lucifer, and even to be convinced of that; and it's another thing to do it. I, for one, can remember a number of instances in which, despite my own beliefs, my behaviour was more in line with what Satan would have wanted me to do than with what God would have wanted me to. I will not hazard a guess at how many Christians are not always perfect models of Christian behaviour, but I am pretty sure that I am not the only one.

edited 2nd Nov '11 12:57:55 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

-reads- -head explodes from stupidity- what the bleeding hell.

Untitled Power Rangers Story

Care to elaborate?

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

1: Apotheosis or "making divine" is what Christians do to Jesus all the bloody time.

2: "Likewise, the power elite's ongoing campaign to establish a socialist totalitarian global government has Luciferianism to thank for both its longevity and frequently violent character." AHHAHA "socialist totalitarian" you mean a radial socialist government like the USSR...already happened, socialism and capitalism need to mix and work together, no matter the system totalitarinism ALWAYS fails in the long run.

I stop read a few lines down because my head started hurting but i think all I have to say is that its a conspiracy theory site and should be treated with the same aversion as any link to 2 girls 1 cup.

Untitled Power Rangers Story

Aah, now I get it — I thought that you were referring to my post, not to that link (which I have not read yet). Sorry!

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

@Carciofus:

-We don't even know if Satan was responsible for the Original Sin. The snake is named Nahash, which is a mythological figure in levantine religions. Furthermore, it was God who changed the nature of the world according to Genesis.

-We have no idea if Gods Need Prayer Badly is real or not, since nobody in their right minds would write holy texts remotely suggesting this, and we can't observe this phenomenon in nature for obvious reasons.

-If I'm not mistaken, Jesus never explicitly uses Satan as a scape-goat for mankind's problems. Sure, he does appear to tempt him, but human beings have the reponsibility for being moral, so not every misdeed is satanic and, considering how Satan acts in Revelation, he might have some level of standards.

edited 2nd Nov '11 1:13:55 PM by Gannetwhale

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult

In the Christian framework, it is quite well established that Satan was the serpent. I could try fishing for quotes, but for example in Revelations he is called "the ancient serpent" or something like that. And God changed the nature of the world because of the disobedience of humans — I am not a literalist, and frankly I tend to consider the whole Genesis account an elaborate allegory, but my impression is that God's "curse" was less of a curse and more of a consequence of humanity's Fall.

Well, if a god's power depended by its number of followers then I would not be inclined to call him a god at all. But in any case, as a concept it is quite in contrast with Christian doctrine — I am not going to fish for quotes, but there are a number of passages in which God states plainly that he has no need whatsoever for sacrifices and prayers.

Sure, the fact that Satan can tempt to evil does not imply that humans are innocent. If I am tempted and I fall, that was my own damn fault for not resisting. Nonetheless, the devil is not powerless.

edited 2nd Nov '11 1:20:51 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Calling Satan "the great serpent" is generally agreed to reflect his form in Revelation, which is draconic in nature. In my opinion, it is an Ass Pull since nowhere else is it even remotely implied, and actually can be interpreted as indicating that Lucifer is a Seraph, a type of angel often described as "serpent" like.

God's "curse" is worded perfectly as his punishment for Adam and Eve. To actually claim that he does not need sacrifices actually makes him worse, as he is demanding inoccent animals and an inoccent person to be sacrificed as what can best be assumed to be a twisted way of demanding loyalty.

edited 2nd Nov '11 1:27:32 PM by Gannetwhale

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult

the serpent in eden is flat out stated to be an animal "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?" ASV

Untitled Power Rangers Story

Why did God put these forbidden apples in front of their faces anyway? Test Of Character?

to say "see these, they are mind. you can't have them. nener nener nener. -blows raspberry at Adam and Eve-"

Untitled Power Rangers Story

Why "test" their character when they don't even have the capacity for moral judgement, much less any life experience? More importantly, why such a ridiculously harsh punishment?

@Gannet: All cultures have offered sacrifices to superhuman spirits. It's not unique to The Bible.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

I disagree, but to be honest it's getting a bit late and I do not feel like fishing for quotes. In any case, as I said, I consider the Genesis account an allegory*

^{Well, to be honest, I sometimes play with the idea that it happened more or less as stated, but in outside of time and space as we now understand it.}

, so the fact that the serpent is stated to be an animal is no particular issue to me.

As I understand it, "punishment", as a concept, is not distinguishable from "consequence". God does not wish for evil, or pain, or suffering — that's just impossible to Him, given His Nature. Certainly in the OT (and even in many parts of the NT) talk about God's "wrath" or "punishment for the wicked" is used; but my interpretation is that all of this is figurative — God loves everyone, after all, and does not desire anyone to suffer.

The only two human sacrifices I can think of are the one of Isaac (which was a Secret Test of Character) and the one of the daughter of Jefte (which is basically a tale about how making rash oaths, especially oaths which involve other people, is going to put you in trouble), As for the animal sacrifices, well, it was people sacrificing a part of their wealth to honour God — kind of primitive, perhaps, but these were different times.

edited 2nd Nov '11 1:51:12 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.