Who are the 'truly wicked'?

In a lot of theological debates in this forum, I see theists saying that Hell isn't for the virtuous unbaptised, or even for people who break smaller rules, but for the 'truly wicked'. What does this mean? Who are considered the 'truly wicked'?

People who harm others without good reason?

edited 21st Oct '11 4:00:48 AM by Jauce

Blimey! I'm not even sure you can expand that term without going into a ton of stuff about sin, the Moral Event Horizon and how it it's dealt with by a dozen different Christian beliefs. It could mean radically different things to different people. Some might even say the definition of what God considers 'truly wicked' is as impossible for us to comprehend as pretty much everything else about him.

Tricky. I don't think that we have enough information to know the answer, even in principle.

But if I would have to guess... Most people, even most people who commit undeniably evil acts, do not do evil for evil's sake. Rather, they seek to do good, but they are misguided and/or they lack self-control. If they learned of the true nature of their acts, they would certainly repent and attempt to make reparations.

A "truly wicked" person, perhaps, would be one who would refuse to do so, who either just plain does things For the Evulz or who, in any case, would bluntly refuse to ask for forgiveness even if fully informed of the evil nature of their actions. Such a person, even if given full knowledge of the nature of good and evil and of the consequences of their actions, would rather go to hell unrepentant than ask sincerely for forgiveness and be allowed to Heaven.

By the way, this meshes interestingly with a fascinating speculation that some Catholic theologians advanced when studying empty hell theory: perhaps, during the process of death, God gives the soul a special awareness about its own state and about the nature of the afterlife, so to allow it a last chance at salvation.

This is pure guesswork, of course; but as a concept, it seems very much in keeping with both God's Mercy and God's Justice. A "truly wicked" person, then, would perhaps be one who, even in these circumstances, would not feel any need to repent of their misdeeds.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Well, that's pretty nice.

Well, the Catholic view is, "we can't actually know for sure". We hold some people have done so much good, served God so faithfully, that it's evident to all they're in heaven. They're capital-S saints. But we don't know who's in the other place, only that it exists. Hence why when Catholics do a funeral, we assume the dead guy's in Purgatory, and hope he's in Heaven.

edited 22nd Oct '11 9:54:41 PM by Cojuanco

In other words, Adolf Hitler gets to heaven, because he thought he was doing good.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Maybe. We'll only know at the end, by which point we'll be past caring.

I would love if that were the case. After all, if he, with all the messed up things that he did, can make it to Heaven, then other people will probably stand a good chance to get in too. And that's all that matters, really.

But as Cojuanco said, we just don't know. We know that hell is a possibility, and that it's not one we want to end in; but we don't know how hard is it to end up there.

By the way, since we mentioned Purgatory: it seems to me that a lot of people apparently seem to believe Purgatory to be some sort of pleasant enough, albeit not perfect, place in which to lounge "until" your number comes up and you can make it to Heaven.

Now, of course no one knows for sure; but, if one reads the mystics and the theologians, it seems to be a fairly unpleasant place. It was Therese of Avila, if I am not mistaken*

, who said something along the lines of a single hour in Purgatory being far harsher than a whole earthly life spent in the most rigorous penance; and I seem to remember someone else (I really don't remember who, though) who speculated that the torments of Purgatory are, strictly speaking, harsher than those of Hell itself — they have to be strong enough to purify souls, after all, and Good Is Not Nice.

EDIT: I don't think that this is the source where I read this, but for example Saint Catherine of Genoa says, in her Treatise on the Purgatory, that

edited 23rd Oct '11 12:42:01 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

The truly wicked, in the broadest sense, are those whose only measurement of success in life is their own personal gain. You can still be an evil man even if you do good deeds, if your only motive for doing good deeds is to buy yourself a ticket to Heaven, or to take advantage of the good publicity and other tangible rewards it brings you.

In theory, perhaps. In practice, I am not that sure — one person trying to do that would end up Becoming the Mask rather quickly, I think.

It's cheesy to say this, I know; but you just cannot spread around good without spilling a little of it over yourself too.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

When hell is empty and everyone eventually gets into heaven, or if we have no way of knowing who will get to heaven and who not, then why does Christianity make such a fuss about "being good" and "Christan morals" and "religious practice" and all that here on earth? If "nobody really knows", then all these things really don't matter much.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

^ Because goodness isn't supposed to be for the sake of a reward, whether in heaven, or on Earth. Goodness is supposed to be for its own sake. (This is actually an argument I've used against religion, but it works in favor of this particular doctrine.)

edited 23rd Oct '11 3:59:48 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Reminds me of this "You are not so smart" post. "You grow to like people for whom you do nice things and hate people you harm.". It's basically about self-perception theory, where the idea is, although you perceive that you do things for a reason, actually you do things first and find a reason for it (rationalize it) afterwards. Hence your ideas around something move towards whatever best justifies your actions WRT that something.

(AFAICS it's really the main reason that 'fake it until you make it' works)

As for the OP, I don't believe in making value judgements on people*

, even as a proxy — our mental faculties are far too unreliable and flawed for that. So my answer would be either: No one, Everyone, or Candles.

edited 24th Oct '11 12:31:09 AM by SavageOrange

'Don't beg for anything, do it yourself, or else you won't get anything.'

If I know that there will be an exam, and I don't know how difficult it will be, but I know that my whole future will depend on it, you can bet your gonads that I will prepare for it to the best of my abilities.

Also, it's not pass/fail. As I said, Purgatory is probably going to be fairly unpleasant, and one would rather spend as less "time" possible in there; and even discounting this, people talk about different "levels" of Heaven.

But this does not matter much. As Feo said, one should try to be good because it is good. In Heaven, where people have a more accurate understanding of what "good" means, they apparently do not stop pursuing it — rather, they pursue it's harder.

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Obviously me and Satan are, Look at my avatar. In my own Satanic doctrine I've been writing myself I gave myself the title "The Corrupter".

Right now in all seriousness it is just a fun project, but hey, it could become an organized Satanic philosophic based order one day. If the Temple of Set, the Church of Satan, or Alister Crowley do it out of seemingly nowhere, why can't I?

I call it Williamism. Take a guess what my real first name is.

though in seriousness, being "truly wicked" is too tricky to answer from an objective standpoint.

as of the 2nd of Nov. has 6 weeks for a broken collar bone to heal and types 1 handed and slowly

@Carciofus: Could you be so kind as to start a thread on Purgatory in Catholic mysticism? I've not read them, and my impression from Dante was that Purgatory is a nicer place to be than Earth.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

Exactly. So we need neither Heaven nor Hell nor the Christian religion. For in the Christian worldview, the one true motivation to do good is the prospect of the heavenly reward, and the one true motivation to avoid evil is fear of punishment in hell. In short, pure egoism.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

I really should be working on grading and not posting here, but this is incorrect.

The point is, the very ability to "do good" is a heavenly reward, in a sense: no human being would be capable of doing so, in a true sense, but for the freely given grace of God.

By "doing good" (I should start discussing faith vs works vs grace here, and how thes viewpoints are not in conflict if they are understood in the right way; but let's not digress), one allows himself to be taken closer to the One True Source of Good. And, conversely, by "doing evil", one separates himself from it.

Is there an egoistic component in wishing to be closer to the Source of Good? It is in one's self-interest, certainly; and it is quite natural that one would be drawn to it, as the desire to do so is hard-coded in our very natures. But ultimately, one's true self-interest and other people's good coincide: by becoming closer and closer to what they were supposed to be, a human being finds him/herself more enabled and more desirous to do the good of others.

And, conversely, doing evil will separate one more and more from the entity that is the source of everything that is good, and this will make one less and less able to do or feel anything good — and this, more than any fanciful imagery about fire and pitchforks, is the true meaning of Hell.

There is no real distinction between "doing good for good's sake", "doing good for the benefit of others" and "doing good for the sake of the heavenly reward": if correctly understood, these are precisely the same thing.

edited 25th Oct '11 1:06:31 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

As far as I can remember, I don't think that it was better than Earth, but better than Hell. Sufferings may have still happened on Purgatory, but it wasn't torture for torture's sake, but for the betterment of the soul, to later ascend into Paradise.

Again, as far as I remember.

A question on my mind here; what's wrong with being wicked, if it makes you happy?

I don't think separation from God is necessarily bad. If you believe that, as the source of good, God has no free will and is incapable of doing evil, then evil was as much a gift as a test. (And I'm suspicious of the statement that evil people are unhappy.)

edited 25th Oct '11 4:05:05 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Well as long as you do not believe that there is actual fire and what not in hell and only a subjective emotional state, it may not be that bad.

Anyway now my comment seems weird that I put back up my sane avatar >.>

I do not think that anyone can really answer what is true wickedness, or if humans are even capable of it. For every evil person they have at least some good qualities... most of the time.

True psychopaths with no excuse other than being born with the inability to empathize might qualify, if they are jerks as well. But even then more or less it isn't their fault that they were born with their brains that way.

To determine who is truly wicked one must determine what qualifies as evil, good, and many other factors. Few will agree on what truly wicked is.

as of the 2nd of Nov. has 6 weeks for a broken collar bone to heal and types 1 handed and slowly

To use Cari's exam metaphor: think of the teachings of Jesus, and the church he founded, as being a study guide. You might pass anyway without looking at it, but still, you stand a much better chance if you prepare.

I disdain the implication that selfishness = evil. Pragmatism normally ensures decency. Therefore, if a person who is selfish but still neutral goes to Hell, it seems that the system is bordering on Knight Templar zone.

A single phrase renders Christianity a delusional cult