But they are. Were it not for Europe, there would be no Arab Israeli Conflict as we know it today. There would be no India-Pakistan wars. The mess in Indochina would never have arisen (or as badly if it did). Neither too things like the Taliban, Al Qaeda, the Iranian theocracy, Saddam Hussein, Hosni Mubarak, Bashir Assad, Muammar Qaddafi, noticing a pattern yet?
The Banana Republics are fucking drop in the bucket compared to those.
Decemberist
Yes Tom, they all have American Support in common
Dutch Lesbian
European roots however.
Ever hear of the Dutch East India Company? How about the British East India Company? Yeah, the Europeans were doing corporate imperialism long before the Americans were, only they were a lot more openly brutal.
edited 18th Oct '11 4:53:35 AM by tropetown
Proud Canadian
Were it not for Europe, there would be no Arab Israeli Conflict as we know it today. There would be no India-Pakistan wars. The mess in Indochina would never have arisen (or as badly if it did). Neither too things like the Taliban, Al Qaeda, the Iranian theocracy, Saddam Hussein, Hosni Mubarak, Bashir Assad, Muammar Qaddafi, noticing a pattern yet?
1. Yes, because Israel wouldn't exist at all, and instead Jews would still be a perscueted minority everywhere but the U.S>
2. No, as when India eventually is united under a democracy (or even worse a dictator) Pakistan would fight a brutal civil war for independence.
3. The "mess" was started by Communists, remember? The war still would have happened, and Vietnam would still have fallen to communism.
Can we stop looking at history as 500 years old and look at Africa before the European influence?
edited 18th Oct '11 4:55:53 AM by Erock
If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
Guys. Make a new thread. Enough about who fucked up Africa more. Oy.
Anyway, there are reports that Kenya has now pushed 120km inside.
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
Looks like tey're giving Al-Shabab an ass-kicking. If Kenya wants to play it smart, they should have no quarter whatsoever with either Al-Shabab officials or those involved in Islamic courts.
edited 18th Oct '11 7:18:25 AM by SavageHeathen
You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
I changed accounts.
edited 18th Oct '11 7:21:57 AM by USAF713
I am now known as Flyboy.
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
Islamists don't respect the Geneva convention, anyway. You don't want to just topple them, you want to wipe out their regime from existence.
Unless you completely annihilate the Islamic courts, they'll just establish them again once Kenya leaves.
edited 18th Oct '11 7:22:16 AM by SavageHeathen
You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
I changed accounts.
The enemy not following the convetions doesn't mean you shouldn't either.
I am now known as Flyboy.
Kenya is not a terrorist organization, thus will not behave like one lest it get painted as yet another bloodthirsty African regime (which it is not).
Further, they're removing the armed threat, which is enough for their purposes. To show no quarter (which isn't allowed in international law for a reason: Makes the enemy fight even more) would be counterproductive.
Decemberist
USAF: The irony is dripping from your post
edit: What ever happened to "You don't get in the way of a country wanting revenge". This invasion is Kenya getting its revenge.
edited 18th Oct '11 7:27:53 AM by whaleofyournightmare
Dutch Lesbian
I changed accounts.
Hey, I said we should try them if at all possible.
Keyword being if.
You complete me.
Seriously, Whale? A) Hold off on the "Yankee Boy" comments you don't see me calling you a Limey do you? and B)
Show me the Cold War, Rubber Camps, Concubine pits, imperialist colonies, acts of genocide, wholesale slaughter, and general raping of Africa that went on from 1500-1940. When you show me pics of Eisner commissioning Slave Ships then you can talk. To even THINK that what the Cold War did to Africa was even close to what Europe did, smacks of you being an Imperialist Apologist.
edited 18th Oct '11 11:07:45 AM by JusticeMan
Let's make a TCG!
OMG NO NOSECONES
Drop the historical blame-game, it's not constructive. I'd like to keep mods in a good conversational mood.
USAF is correct; Kenya would do well to follow international laws of war when doing this. Fighting just as dirty as the enemy is a good way to encourage the enemy to fight back even more, and may even be seen as justifying even greater atrocities.
Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, so they say...
Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
And it might attract foreign support for the enemy if you fight the war like a complete monster.
If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied -Rudyard Kipling
OMG NO NOSECONES
Yes. For example, look what happened in Libya. If Gadaffi had been a bit less of a complete jerk, the entire situation over there would've palyed out differently for him in so many ways.
If you fight fairly, you're also far less likely to land yourself in hot water with the ICC and stuff.
Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
scratching at .8, just hopin'
On the topic of Kenya: what do they have in terms of spec ops? I know that the U.S. can put a wetworks team just about anywhere in the world and pop a cap in someone's ass, but I have no idea what it takes in terms of logistics and training for smaller countries to have similar capabilities in their spheres of influence.
I'd really like to read about Kenyan ninjas sneaking into warlord compounds at night and kicking ass, as unlikely as that is to happen.
Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Considering that Kenya hasn't ever deployed its military before this (best they ever did prior to this was just border clashes), I dunno if they even have spec ops. And if they do, I doubt they're that experienced.
KVLFON
A Kenyan commando operation would be the fastest such operation in the world. 
edit: I forgot to add, I have no doubts that it would run flawlessly.
edited 18th Oct '11 1:16:57 PM by lordGacek
"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"
OMG NO NOSECONES
^ The pun, it burns...
Found their military page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Defence_Forces
They appear to have a huge variety of vehicles and small arms, something that a logistical manager would have fits over (although it appears that they're secretly funneling arms and stuff into Sudan, so who knows).
Just their rifle selection gives me a headache: G3's, three AK-variants (four if you count the Israeli Galil rifle), AR-15's, and the FN-FAL. That's three types of ammunition - 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and 7.62x51mm.
edited 18th Oct '11 1:47:11 PM by pvtnum11
Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
Why in the world would they use rifles in three calibers?
It's not like rifles are expensive or anything. There's always some friendly guerrilla far, far away from you that's willing to buy them. There's no reason not to make a full switch to AK-74M or FN FNC.
edited 18th Oct '11 2:02:43 PM by SavageHeathen
You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
OMG NO NOSECONES
I'm guessing here but:
They manage to source some AR-15's from us or one of our allies. couple of thousand. As long as you take care of them, they'll last for awhile. Spare parts aren't that hard to get.
Ak's are like weeds in the African continent. Not hard to see how they scored some Ak-47's. Ammo is plentiful. If I was them, I'd issue these to the recruits and green troops - easy to train on and they can take a real beating and still work.
AK-101's and 102's? Those are newer export-intended rifles, chambered in 5.56mm, so you cna use them alongside your AR-15's and not worry about ammunition logistic problems.
Galil? Same caliber as teh AR-15 and new AK's. Essentially, it's Israel's answer to their service rifle problem. They wanted the accuracy of an AR-15 with the durability of the AK. Among the better AK-klones around. Along with the Ak101/102, they might be phasing out their AK-47 stocks. I would, given the option, relegating AK-47's and AKM's as reservist rifles.
G3 and FN-FAL? Battle rifles. Full-powered cartridges. Give them to a skilled rifleman, and that might fill your squad designated marksman role, as PSG-1's are expensive.
Well, maybe it's not so crazy a scheme after all, after I ponder it for a bit.
Happiness is zero-gee with a sinus cold.
You know, even tough my country never held colonies I still feel insulted that you call Europe greatest source of suffering. Yes, imperialism and colonism were bad times to be non-European, but t's not fair to blame us only. May I remind you that during Cold War US pretty much fucked up every stable country if they even detected hint of socialims? What about BananaRepublics?
Europe may have fucked things up, but US had it's own spoon in the soup, so to say.