If Square takes over almost all of Star Wars rights....

Discuss. Meanwhile, I think these things would happen

1) They would add a planet into the expanded universe that's full of bishie aliens

2) Lightsaber designs would look less tacky. And Corruscant for that matter

3) Robes would be more inspired by Too Many Belts and Nobodies

4) We'll start seeing Force powers referencing Final Fantasy magics

5) There'll be more crystal mythos, and may or may not be connected to Final Fantasy and other crystal related settings

6) Very. Awesome. FFXIII level C Gs. That is all

What more to add to that? Basically, I think Lucas Arts is too spent to do anything further. Better to leave the whole franchise to more competent executives and crew. Every Lucas Arts game just had to come with glitches, bugs and other crap, so why not Square?

An interesting idea...

That would either turn out really badly or really well. Actually, with all those Japanese companies outsourcing to Western development studios, I would really like to see what would happen in the reverse.

Just release a special edition of the prequel trilogy where every fifteen minutes the viewer has to select Fight, Defend, or Magic from a menu

Final Fantasy weapons are some of the most overdesigned and least functional weapons I can think of. Lightsaber hilts may sometimes be somewhat bizarre, but the majority are easily held and allow for a great diversity of movement. The blades imitate regular longsword blades, except that they're omnidirectional, making one of very few possible improvements to that age old design.

Not that I mean to sound hostile, mind, it's just that tacky weapons are a Square trademark and have unfortunately become a large influence on weapons design in video games. Thankfully, influential films like The Lord Of The Rings and influential games like Demons Souls surreptitiously work to restore some degree of practicality and grace to weapons designs, but Square still have a vice grip.

Personally, I hold out hope for further Jedi Knight games. Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy aren't just great games, but brilliant examples of martially sound, if basic, European longswordsmanship taken advantage of for the sake of game mechanics. Square games benefit from being AAA titles, but within that category, I don't find them to be particularly good.

edited 15th Oct '11 7:49:11 AM by MadassAlex

You make it sound as if it's entirely a bad thing. Perhaps both west and east style would merge, for the lack of better word. Ending up totally awesome even. And I played Jedi Academy as well. Good times, but not a well difficulty-controlled game

edited 15th Oct '11 8:42:35 AM by Cassie

I think it is.

Given that I study European longsword as a martial art, I can't be trusted to have an unbiased perspective, but there's a difference between the weapons being unoptimised and being entirely ridiculous. Mind you, information isn't always easy to find and some sources contradict one-another, but Square shows me a distinct lack of effort filled in by audacity.

Besides, I think a better example of memorable design comes from those examples that are gracefully altered versions of the norm rather than overblown reimaginings. Examples like Anduril from The Lord Of The Rings, which are sparsely ornamented yet still striking. Practicality doesn't have to get left behind.

Eastern weapons design is just as understated and practical as its Western equivalent. Katanas might look more impressive to some, for instance, but they were forged like so for their tangible physical benefits.

edited 15th Oct '11 8:48:55 AM by MadassAlex

Speaking of which, there's one boomerang point I'd like to make. Given how similar Jedi Order is to our martial arts disciplines, wouldn't it make more sense for some Jedi to use Taiji sword moves or other Chinese sword styles?

Not really. The lightsaber most prominently resembles the two-handed European longsword. Keep in mind that there is a legitimate martial art tied to this weapon, or many variations of the same. While there's a pan-European system, there are also regional variations. Most prominent is the German style, and the Italian is only a little behind. We're also in the process of rediscovering English alterations, and French combat techniques have surfaced although largely unrelated to the longsword.

What we see in the OT is essentially a slow, cumbersome version of the European longsword style anyway. It was a combination of Japanese kendo and Olympic fencing, but certain physical considerations bring kendo closer to the European style anyway, and modern Olympic fencing is something of a great grandchild to the true combat arts of ages past.

Contrary to popular belief, Medieval and Renaissance Europe had martial arts to match the East. The unarmed stylings of the knightly combat manuals very closely resemble jujitsu, for instance, and while there are some very significant differences between Western swordsmanship and kenjutsu, there are also some very interesting similarities.

I entered this thread thinking Square/Star Wars was an actual thing. Not sure how I would feel if this was the case.

Also I'm actually really interested in these western martial arts, do you have a link where I could read more Alex?

To be honest, I'd be rather disappointed if Square Enix somehow managed to do it:

Thanks, but no thanks. What I liked about the aliens in the Star Wars 'verse is that they aren't all generically pretty; there are some downright hideous aliens, at least by human standards. Helps add some variety, y'know?

Nah, I like the understated, elegant approach lightsaber design takes. Not everything has to be a great big hunk of metal or massively over-designed/engineered to be cool. In a way, it makes some of the more impressive hilts (like Palpatine's lightsaber hilt) really striking and stand out. And don't badmouth Coruscant, that looked really pretty (that, and I think they managed to capture the city feel of it).

Again, thanks but no thanks. I like the simplicity and the lack of flashiness in the Jedi/Sith robes. For the former, it evokes the monastic orders of old, whereas for the latter it calls to mind treacherous sorcerors and witches. It's a very simple yet stark contrast.

Urgh, no. Some of the Force powers you can find in the EU just strikes me as horribly cheesy/lame, and I think that adding more of it would only worsen things.

What...? We don't really need to introduce FF stuff in order to have a crystal planet - hell, I'm sure there's already a few in the EU.

I will admit that Square Enix does superb CGI, but I feel that Star Wars could do without full CGI stuff, aside from that for the special effects/planets (and Industrial Light and Magic already has done a good job of that).

Also, I like the distinctly Western feel of Star Wars - I fear that it would be lost if Square Enix ever did take over Star Wars, even if it is extremely unlikely. Sorry to be a negative Nancy, but these are my opinions.

@Madass Alex, Beta Ray:

Same. You hardly ever hear about Western martial arts, and I'd like to hear more.

I always love getting people interested!

This is a good repository of information, although a little inaccessible. Here, you'll find raw versions and translations of Medieval and Renaissance fighting manuals, although the wiki itself delivers small context for the uninitiated.

This video shows off some medium-speed techniques, too, to give a bit of an idea how the theory plays out in reality.

Here's a little bit of information for context:

Europe is considered to have unrecorded martial arts stretching back to the Greeks and even further into history. Few cultures survive long without some degree of martial force, and in eras where close combat is the major method of self-defense and conquest, martial arts become all-important. So we can say with confidence that the Celts would've had their own martial arts, as would the Germanic tribes, the Romans and everyone in-between.

In the 14th century, however, a knight known as Johannes Liechtenauer caused a revolution in fighting technique. Travelling all across Europe and studying with the masters of the time, he pushed the art of close combat further than it had been taken prior, resulting in a devastating martial art that had, by the Renaissance, been imitated all across Europe. The core system doesn't appear to belong to him, but the solutions to incoming challenges are probably a result of his own study, experience and creativity.

Under his influence, the Society of Liechtenauer was established. This exclusive group included his closest students and allies, and during this time his martial teachings were quite exclusive. By the time that the Renaissance was in full swing, however, many of his secrets had been leaked, or his teachings were appropriated and altered in different regions. Europe's knights were ablaze with newfound skill derived from this man's teachings. Liechentauer's martial art remained highly influential for 300 years; almost the entire lifespan of his weapon of choice, the two-handed longsword.

Even later arts developed for other sword forms continued to be influenced by his teachings. In particular, Germany's approach to fighting with rapier, sabre, back sword and sword and buckler appear very close to Liechtenauer's longsword with some mechanical alterations to take into account different weapon specifics. Other countries diversified more.

All of the earliest fighting manuals, bar one (a German manuscript from the late 13th century or very early 14th century) are directly influenced by Liechtenauer, and most reference him directly in tones of reverence.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me via thread or PM.

EDIT: I also love how Star Wars is sort of Spaghetti Western meets Medievalism meets Eastern spiritualism, and I think Square is incapable of that unique combination.

edited 15th Oct '11 10:11:01 AM by MadassAlex

And I love how you are completely OT. Don't you think that it would be better to make a separate thread for that? I think that people who are interested in it (which is not me, I think martial arts, western or eastern, are nice to look at (and I think that a Western swordfighting simulation, similar to some Jidaigeki games, would be a nice idea) but I have no interest for the deeper and theoretical stuff) would welcome that.

I don't care much for the weapon designs so Square's over-the-top-ness in that regard doesn't bug me and I don'T understand the whining about it (hell, there are more ridiculous things to complain about than weapons designs). Realistic or ridiculous it's all cool and Star Wars, with it's laser-deflecting, cutting-through-nearly-everything-except-for-a-specific-material static laser blades is just as ridiculous as Square's idiotically impractical "swords".

If Square takes over Star Wars rights... Then they will probably publish Star Wars games. It's unlikely that they will make them themselves. Just as they publish games from other developers, like Human Revolution, now. Why people think that they would "Final Fantasy-rize" it is beyond me.

edited 15th Oct '11 10:57:00 AM by Nyarly

I don't understand why people seem to equate Square Enix entirely with Nomura and Amano.

Really, I think people just like to make fun of SE and aren't interested in really considering what would be if SE gets SW rights. Since that would just be "Square Enix probably publishes Star Wars games", I can't even really blame them.

Horii gets no love.

Star Wars does at least attempt to explain that kind of thing; lightsabers apparently exert force outward from the core, thus deflection and interrupting other blades. Aside from that, though, lightsabers are of the proper dimensions to be ideal for human use, and the hilts are light enough to be swung quickly.

On the other hand, Final Fantasy never tells us what benefit their weapon designs bring, and by all observations they'd be far too heavy, slow and impotent to ever accomplish anything. Star Wars breaks a lot of rules, too, but in its case, they're theoretically sensible breakages; a laser sword would be an incredibly weapon with all the strengths and none of the weaknesses of a real sword. Final Fantasy weapons, however, undo their own core advantages while providing nothing in return. They're more ornament than weapon, while a lightsaber is all business. To the extent of having an omnidirectional blade.

Concerning the O Tness, I'm merely answering questions and dispelling some myths. Besides, swordsmanship is hardly a tangent from Star Wars.

edited 15th Oct '11 12:39:53 PM by MadassAlex

Fantasy world = fantasy weapons.

If I want realistic weapons and styles, I'll look elsewhere.

Or rather this.

edited 15th Oct '11 1:12:37 PM by Nyarly

How is that a bad thing? I much prefer outlandish-styled weapons in a fantasy game, along wish more practical designs.

The less games try to make their weapons realistic (this includes swords AND guns), the better.

Also, what Troper Roxas said.

edited 15th Oct '11 1:14:18 PM by Rynnec

I don't mind realistic weapons, but I don't see why everything has to have realistic weapons to be good.

edited 15th Oct '11 1:17:54 PM by Beorc

It's a bad thing because Alex is a sword geek. At least that's how I understood it.

Except that almost all of the most celebrated fantasy stories are known for how down-to-earth they often are. The Lord Of The Rings can be pretty mundane at times, and most of the magic in the books and films works against the protagonists. Of all the Fellowship, for instance, only Gandalf is magical. Most of the good guys throughout the series are mundane people/whatever using mundane means to fight the sorcerous forces of darkness. That's a part of what generates the tension.

One thing about the "fantasy X = fantasy Y" argument that it always fails to answer the following question:

If human biomechanics/psychology are the same, how does one justify a change that runs contrary to human requirement or efficiency? Swords are good because they're designed with human biomechanics in mind; spears, axes, polearms are all the same in that respect. They're weighted and balanced to be used by human beings with the utmost efficiency possible.

In any case, some of the most important elements of any fantasy story are those that match reality. The Lord Of The Rings is so well-loved in part because it understands this. It's a fantasy world with fantasy inhabitants, but their psychology, feelings and capabilities make sense. The logical conclusion of the "fantasy X = fantasy Y" argument terminates any criticism of something that doesn't make sense. The fact of the matter is that fantasy is meant to reflect reality, but with a level of abstraction other genres can't match.

I'd also argue that ridiculous weapons lose their wow factor when they become a staple; a weapon a human being can't really use is boring once the excitement and spectacle is gone. A weapon a human being can use is martial arts, and that means efficiency, cleverness, skill and understanding. After all, human capability is always more interesting than the tools at our disposal, thus the spiritual significance of the Force in Star Wars. All stories, including fantasy, come down to human beings.

On the other hand, I dislike many Square games for many reasons. I think they're very self-indulgent, with the weapons just being one facet of that. Almost the inverse of the Star Wars OT, in fact.

edited 15th Oct '11 1:37:25 PM by MadassAlex

If Square had control over most of the licensing rights to Star Wars, it'd just result in Kingdom Hearts becoming even more of an allusion to the movies. Hell, Birth by Sleep is pretty much the Episode 3 of KH.

Lord Of The Rings is considered "low fantasy", which means magic is downplayed to a great extent. Hell, Tolkien insisted the world was our actual Earth in the distant past.

Final Fantasy is extreme high fantasy. Blaming Square for the existence of a genre that largely predates their existence shows a lack of awareness of the depth of fantasy as a genre.

Demanding that only one or the other is valid is similarly ridiculous. Frankly, I'm tired of Lord Of The Rings being used as the default for all Western fantasy works. I love Tolkien, but I don't love it when everyone insists on being Tolkien to be taken "seriously". And I'm sorry, people don't love a story about elves and midgets with hairy feet and giant eyeballs because "the weapons are realistic". They love it because it tells a good story. Period.