Series/Firefly

Which makes the casting look like it's saying that white people "won," which may be even worse.

Acknowledged, obviously. I'd just prefer that next time (although as you said, he probably doesn't care) he NOT base his next fictional culture on a certain race if he's not willing to show people of that race engage in that culture to begin with. As someone in that link I posted pointed out (IIRC), if he'd done the same with African culture, he would've been run out of town on a rail. But since it's just the Asians, it's okay, because they're all powerless nerdy wimps and inscrutable Dragon Ladies, right?

I think one reason it strikes a nerve (at least with me) isn't this particular instance. It's that it's a high profile example, directly or indirectly, of much larger problems (including, but not limited to, racial stereotyping, mindless cultural appropriation, racial visibility in television), and it demonstrates that most people simply don't care. They're so used to seeing only white faces on TV (with a smattering of tokens just to break up the monotony) that they don't see a problem with it, or even notice it enough to even think it's a problem, even in a fricking Asian inspired universe. It's frustrating to be reminded of that.

It's not the end of the world, no, and it certainly won't impact Whedon's career any. It's just personally disappointing (especially that it WON'T impact his career — assuming it's deliberate, which I freely confess is not at all certain; I'm as ready to blame suits as anyone, given their track record in these matters), especially with "oh, Summer Glau looks kinda Asian, a little" and similar statements, and the hooker casting making me kinda... wonder.

edited 7th Mar '13 9:26:43 AM by Leaper

Their world adopting Chinese culture doesn't make there be any more Chinese people. Unless the Chinese people spread out and married non-Chinese people they shouldn't be any more noticeable then the Chinese now. Most people in Firefly seemed to be like poor old-westerners who didn't travel from planet to planet. I think the ship just never went to a planet where the Chinese lived.

Maybe Mal got laughed off a Chinese planet due to how bad his Chinese was and just decided to never go back?

edited 7th Mar '13 4:53:11 PM by Zendervai

I remember reading that Whedon would have rather had the cultural blend be American and Japanese, as he enjoys Japanese culture and speaks Japanese himself, but he couldn't justify it given political realities. You can see in places, too, where he tossed in bits from other Asian cultures (Indian in particular) and some antiquated European stuff too (such as in Shindig).

Still, though, I agree; it would have been a good idea to put some Asians in there. As to why the lack goes past so many without comment,, I think you must be a city-dweller. There are lots of rural areas and small-towns in the US (in what I suppose many would call "flyover country") where the citizenry never, or rarely ever, even see an Asian or Asian American. It wouldn't occur to them that there's a lack of Asians on American TV because there's a lack of Asians in their lives.

That's because ultimately, that is true. Hollywood doesn't care about any minority whatsoever, one way or the other. Hollywood is a business. They care about their profit margins and their bottom line. They employ artists who also generally don't care either. They care about telling the story they want to tell.

Apathy isn't malice. The idea of "If you are not WITH me, then you are AGAINST me," is wrong. Nobody in Hollywood wakes up in the morning going, "How can I keep minority groups down today?" But the truth is, few people in Hollywood wake up going, "What less-fortunate people can I assist today?" either, and those that do aren't thinking about Asians. Nobody's really thinking about Asians. When people think of victimized minorities, they think of three groups: black people, gay people, and women.

When Hollywood DOES make a movie to champion a cause, it's usually one of those three. A lot of people don't care about the plight of the Asian man because Asians don't usually wake up to lynch mobs on their lawn.

A movie focusing entirely on homosexuals in the Nazi Holocaust would win all the awards.

So casting Asian people when your entire universe is built around an Asian country dominating the culture is somehow "fighting for a cause"? So the only way to be politically neutral is an all-white cast? Why the hell is that the default? (Stupid question, actually; it's always the default in the Western world, unfortunately.)

Sure, they want to tell a story. As I've said repeatedly, I'd be fine with the casting if Whedon's story didn't involve Chinese culture so fundamentally. It stinks of cultural appropriation and (yes, I'm going to say it) racism (on SOMEONE'S part, not necessarily Whedon's — the suits and, frankly, portions of the audience are a lot more likely, IMO).

And for that matter, catering to people who want to see only white faces on the screen may be good business, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be called out, or that it doesn't completely suck.

I think there's a more fundamental disagreement here, at least with you, that won't be resolved in a random forum thread. (And to be clear, it doesn't involve any racism on your part, or on the part of any other posters here, AFAIK. It involves a difference in understanding of the issues here, of why I, and the people in the link I posted in 190, writer and commenter alike, are upset — if that's the right word — about this.)

edited 8th Mar '13 10:25:45 AM by Leaper

An all-white cast is not the default. It's simply what happened as a result of the casting calls. Like I said before, it's only about race to the people who are screaming "RACISM" about it. In point of fact, the role of Kaylee was originally intended to be an Asian role, but Jewel Staite proved to be so perfect for the role that she was cast for it. This is far from being the first time that's ever happened, and it probably won't be the last either, because when given the choice between an actor who is PERFECT for the role being cast and turning that actor down, any good casting director will go with the amazing actor. It's not even something that just happens with white people; Will Smith has gotten plenty of roles that were written for white men.

Casting is a crapshoot. There's not an infinitely large pool of talented actors to choose from. When you strike gold, you have to run with it, because the odds of hitting gold again aren't great, especially when you start adding more qualifiers to narrow your pool of available candidates. So, yes, it is about "your cause" versus business, because you would have the casting director turn down an actor that has proven themselves to be perfect for the role they were given simply because they don't fall into the minority you want the character to be in.

That's not to mention the fact that casting has to be done on a schedule, or you're going to delay the entire project just so you can find your perfect minority actor. These decisions aren't made in a vacuum.

(This doesn't address all the points , so bear with me.)

If so, frankly, there should have been at least a couple of qualifiers. Not on every character, for sure, but come on. Again, the important part was that this universe was written as an American-Chinese culture. It's like a nine member cast of all white actors on a TV show set in South Africa. Sure, it's possible, but it's so jarring compared to what would actually happen that you have to wonder about an agenda.

Again, if this had been an American-African based culture, and the cast was seven white people, a Chinese-American, and a half Chinese/half white actor, a lot more people would actually care. And for good reason.

Okay, Leaper, I get what you're saying, but firstly, the cast of Firefly isn't all white. Zoe and Book, for instance, are black, and Inara, whose character I'm guessing is supposed to be of Indian descent, is played by an Hispanic actress (not sure if that counts as "white" or not). Secondly, the Firefly universe isn't "dominated" by Chinese culture. It just includes it as a primary element. Granted, the fact that Chinese culture is seldom portrayed in the West at all (and really, why would it? How often is Western culture portrayed in Chinese TV?) and so ANY portrayal would kind of stick out, Firely is much, much more out of the American West than it is China.

And it would be a bit different, have a nine-person all white cast on a South African tv show because in South Africa, black people are the demographic majority.

edited 9th Mar '13 2:37:49 PM by Robbery

The fact that you think the first point actually means anything to what I'm saying tells me that maybe I haven't explained myself sufficiently well...? Hmm.

Let me try this: I'm saying that it's wrong to have a universe with heavy Chinese influence and not have any Asians actually present to enact their own culture. To not have any reflects some very Unfortunate Implications, especially given the oft-mentioned (by me) hooker. (If Me Love You Long Time were still a trope, I'd wick to it, even if it's misuse, just to make the point.)

Honestly, I always assumed Kaylee, Simon, River and Inara were all Asian. Or at least part-Asian.

I don't really have a point with this. Just putting it out there.

I didn't get that with Kaylee, but the others I did.

Kaylee feels thoroughly Irish to me.

I think it might be her eyes? Maybe? Or the way she smiles?

I dunno. She just seemed Asian to me.

Yeah, I'm in the "Kaylee has Asian heritage" camp as well.

I'm also of the opinion that Asian actors would have definitely been an improvement to Firefly, but when you say "it's wrong to have a universe with heavy Chinese influence and not have any Asians actually present to enact their own culture" it sounds like you mean they should have gotten Chinese nationals and not, say, Chinese-Americans. Which probably isn't always feasible. However, if that isn't what you're saying, then I'm more or less with you. I don't think it's wrong, I just think it's inadvisable. It should be remembered, too, that the presence of cultural representatives is also going to be impacted by what perspective the creators wanted to portray.

It's funny, but I've read that a lot of fans (and even Joss Whedon and Nathan Fillion themselves) think Jewel Staite (Kaylee), Summer Glau (River), Sean Maher (Simon), and Moreena Baccarin (Inara) look faintly Asian, 'cuz none of them are, even remotely. I can kind of see where they're coming from, but none of them (except maybe Inara) ever looked all that Asian to me.

edited 10th Mar '13 10:08:45 PM by Robbery

Glau actually doesn't look very white to me (and I'm Asian).

Maher and Staite? Not even a little Asian.

Baccarin doesn't look East Asian, but does have some northern Indian features (I'm aware that she's of Hispanic descent).

This was a weird post.

The American West also had Chinese people. Then they had descendants who would like the chance to appear on tv.

They did?

EDIT: Durrrr, railroad workers. Don't mind me.

edited 12th Mar '13 1:52:50 PM by disruptorfe404

Or as wikipedia put it

They also worked quite a bit in mining and also often had to work to pay off the price of coming over which could end up as basically being indentured servitude in some cases. Which is what I was reminded of when watching "Jaynestown".

10% of the population of California?

That's a lot more than I expected.

Chance. Not God-given right. They cast the best the found out of who came to the audition.

Now that you mention it, there's no reason not to have Chinese-Old Western extras on the planets they visited.

Maybe it costs more to expend the effort to get Asian extras.

Then maybe the culture shouldn't have been written as so heavily Asian influenced if they didn't want to bother to show half of the people who made it possible, hmm?

And please don't think I'm one of those who sees racism everywhere — this particular instance just really bothers me, especially since it's so egregious. It just feels like old Charlie Chan movies and Breakfast at Tiffany's all over again.