Capitalism Sucks

Just saw your reply there. Well, from what I know about Germany today, it has the strongest economy in the EU. Is it continuing with the social market strategy that it once implemented, or is their economic model closer to American-style capitalism?

I have my own economic theory. It goes something like this:

material wealth -> immaterial wealth -> freedom from all scarcity

Right now we are in transition from the material wealth stage, in which trade is based around physical resources, to the immaterial wealth stage - when ideas become the basis of wealth, because advanced technology has rendered traditional notions of labor and local scarcity of goods obsolete. We haven't quite made the transition yet, but at least we can see how we could get there - advanced technology like robotics could render manual labor obsolete within our lifetimes, and regional "make anything" machines could eventually evolve from their 3-d printer ancestors. Combine that with nuclear fusion or other cheap energy sources like orbiting solar power + wireless power transmission and as a society the notion of lack of physical resources would be obsolete. Instead, all wealth would depend on patents, ideas, information - intangible things which still have value. This transition is already happening in the USA - many companies, such as Apple, now base most of their net worth on the value of their ideas, not on the actual product sales, and Blue Ocean strategy is now routine.

The final step comes about when we no longer have a notion of economics, and humanity just uses their time to study the arts and sciences, to better ourselves in general, or to nurture new ecosystems on other planets. Think Crystal Spires and Togas. This last step cannot be attained with technological advancement alone - humans have to give up the notion of wealth as a concept. This stage requires step two, because humans can't just stop thinking about such things as scarcity and abundance so long as such vital things as food remain difficult to make locally.

Its stuck with its social market strategy and avoided "Anglo-Saxon" capitalism like the plague.

I see. What are your thoughts on that? I'll admit, I haven't heard as much as I'd like about ordoliberalism, but if the German economy is doing (comparatively) well by sticking with a social market strategy, shouldn't more countries shift toward a similar model?

Well it depends really, from 1990 to 2008, GDP growth in Germany was about 2.5% a year average. It was a slow growth, also its national debt is of a similar size to the United Kingdoms though.

Growth isn't particularly important. If the economy grows but the working class's purchasing power and standard of living degrade or plummet, the economy sucks.

Slow growth that actually benefits the working class is much better than fast growth into the pockets of the burgeoisie.

Are you referring to a social market economy specifically, or just the economy in general?

edited 11th Oct '11 5:16:00 AM by tropetown

Economy in general.

The important thing is not how much wealth is created, but how much of it finds its way into the working man (and woman)'s pocket.

edited 11th Oct '11 7:26:05 AM by SavageHeathen

Well I would broaden the statement to whether or not the growth translates into better lives or not for everyone. A well functioning and efficient economy shouldn't have any non-workers and/or landed rich elite, or super rich elite (self-grown or otherwise). It's indicative of an inefficient allocation of resources for which the purpose of capitalism was based upon, which was not profit, but cheaply allocating goods to people to maximise happiness. If your economy does none of this, whatever system it is, it's pretty useless.

Mutualism is my favorite form of market socialism, if I were to choose a form of socialism at all, it'd be that. Thanks, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Kevin Carson!

edited 11th Oct '11 11:14:06 AM by secretist

I was referring to the working class.

This blog does a pretty good jobs of defending capitalism with videos! Ditto! Reason Fee

edited 11th Oct '11 11:19:40 AM by secretist

Ideally, Savage, there isn't a working class.

Now, since there's still scarcity and robots are far from effective enough to do menial labor (not to mention the concept of Uncanny Valley in relation to service work, and how people would be turned off by non-human interaction for things like cashiers and such), we're going to have a working class.

The goal, then, is to somehow find a way to get these people enough money to live, while not actually overpaying for a job. This is... very difficult, and as a social person, rather than an economics person, I don't have an answer for it at the moment.

Capitalism isnt the problem. Capitalism with no regulations however, is a monster out to eat all the little entrepeneurs.

perfectly said. Capitalism isn't perfect(nothing is) but it's the best system for humans as a whole. Sure some forms of anarchy and Communism would be better, but as one man said(wish i remembered who) "Marx has the right idea but the wrong specis" (paraphrased). There too many dishonest and greedy humans for it to work, while capitalism encourages people to work harder for there own benifit(when done right. IM LOOKING AT YOU REPUBLICANS!)

Scrubs -People are bastard coated bastards with bastard filling

edited 11th Oct '11 8:16:07 PM by joyflower

IMO the best mix of capitalism and socialism is:

Universal healthcare. It simply runs better when it's run as a service, not a business, and costs don't average in invididual cases.

Average taxes on everyone but the rich, which gets 50+%.

Try not to go to war.

Run a god damn surplus. Use it to pay off debt or continually improve infrastructure, schools, research, or microloans to businesses.

Mixed regulations (high environmental, but that's just me). Enough to prevent collapses, but not quite like the brutal regulation from Brussels.

Don't run job creation programs. They don't work. Fund retraining instead.

Follow these steps and ou'll have a successfull country.

edited 11th Oct '11 8:15:05 PM by Erock

Or an imploded economy if that doesn't work?

the opposite of success isnt always dystopia. Not to mention by that logic, we shouldnt use libertarian ideals either because if they happen to fail, then we're all doomed.

@secretist

What?

That's how France/Germany/Canada are beating out everyone else right now.

edited 12th Oct '11 12:15:44 PM by breadloaf

Isn't Germany run by a conservative coalition of Christian Democratic Union, Christian Social Union of Bavaria, and the Free Democrats? Canada by the Conservative Party?

Germany - not the Social Democrats, the Left, or the Greens Canada- not the New Democrats, Liberals, Bloc Qubecois, or the Greens

edited 12th Oct '11 12:45:26 PM by secretist

What exactly is your point there? Policies matter, not political postures.

Canada is a mixed economy with heavy regulations, with the Conservative Party of Canada just earlier this year re-imposing restrictions they earlier lifted on mortgages. They raised massive taxes on income trusts to regain tax shortfall from companies switching into that form. They funded a 50 billion dollar liquidity fund followed by a 80 billion dollar stimulus package for spending in infrastructure and so on.

Germany is known for its union high wage factory workers, at least to me. France is known for its crazy socialism.

So, you can talk about how it's conservative party here, and whatnot over there but the point of the matter, none of them are pushing heavy capitalism. They've all shied away from it despite their positions on the matter in early 2000.

edited 12th Oct '11 12:53:42 PM by breadloaf

Capitalism has made some effectiveness but it is quite ineffeint: a notion is a market free to do as it pleases. While a planed ecomony is tyrany... so is leaving the market in chaos. Corperations must be police to ensure they do not abush their powers. Capitalism may make wealth but it leads into a cycle of ups and lows that is too inefficent. We must find a system of ballance.

"Green ecomonics" has a grant idea in the policing of companies to avoid over pollution. If this can be applied to work ethics and the well-fair of the collective.. then we may create a grander system. If we take inspirations from the different models... the local power of merchanism, the power of capitalism, the collective will of Marxism and the ethical notion of green regulation... maybe we find the democratic ecomonic model that is for the people? We are evoluting; our ideas are evoluving. We will first need a figure to commence great works of writing but one day capitalism will be replace; such is the nature of our evolution as monarchy was replaced by empire which was replaced by represenation. One day... we will have that which succeeds over capitalism.

secritist conservative is respective.

Canada 2011 Canada 2008 Canada 2005 Actually, according to Political Compass in 2005, 2008, and 2011, the Conservatives have been going right.

Germany 2005 The CDU is pretty far right and the Free Democrats are either at or near 10 on the right wing scale.

edited 13th Oct '11 11:37:30 AM by secretist