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The Prosperity Gospel Thread:

When I made the Social Gospel thread what I really wanted to make was a Prosperity Gospel thread.I think everyone knows about the infamous prosperity gospel because of televangelists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

I got Social and Prosperity Gospel mixed up.
 
 2 Mark Von Lewis, Mon, 3rd Oct '11 3:06:38 PM from Somewhere in Time Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
KCCO
As long as those people aren't pro-prohibition then they are good in my book.
"I'm Neil de Grasse Tyson, and I'm here to blow your mind."
 3 Carciofus, Mon, 3rd Oct '11 3:27:10 PM from Alpha Tucanae I
Is that cake frosting?
I think that the so-called Prosperity Gospel is nonsense.

Material wealth is not a sign of God's favour, just like poverty is not a sign of His displeasure — if anything, the opposite seems to be more common.

edited 3rd Oct '11 3:27:20 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 4 USAF713, Mon, 3rd Oct '11 3:28:54 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
That comes across as a corruption of Objectivism, which bothers me because I already share enough beliefs with Objectivism as it is to be annoyed by its general failure to stand up to the test of reality.

TL;DR: When militant opposing forces start to sound similar...
I am now known as Flyboy.
 5 Carciofus, Mon, 3rd Oct '11 3:36:45 PM from Alpha Tucanae I
Is that cake frosting?
I think that Prosperity Theology is earlier than Objectivism, actually — it developed in the 50s, while Objectivism developed in the 60s if I'm not mistaken.

To be frank, I consider Prosperity Theology to be far worse than Objectivism. Objectivism is at least honest: it preaches greed and selfishness, and it has the gall to admit it openly.

Prosperity Theology, instead, provides a framework in which you can take your own material wealth as a sign of your good standing with the Divinity — with the one Divinity who was born in a freaking manger, by the way —, other people's poverty as a sign of their sinfulness, and go through your life convinced, truly and utterly convinced, that your worship of Mammon is pleasing the Holy Trinity.

edited 3rd Oct '11 3:37:20 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 6 USAF713, Mon, 3rd Oct '11 3:39:13 PM from the United States
I changed accounts.
Eh, Objectivism to me was taking the right premises and going the totally wrong direction with them.

Also, I think Objectivism was actually formulated back in the '40s, but probably not formally until later. Remember, Rand was born back in the '20s, I think.

Anyhow, yeah, taking wealth as a sign of favor from God has the Unfortunate Implications associated with "God hates the poor!" Which... doesn't really make sense, sociologically-speaking, but, there is no sense to be found here either way, so...
I am now known as Flyboy.
I'm a strong Catholic so I find prosperity gospel to be sort of backward. Poverty is a mark of perfection, and was highly encouraged by Jesus. Worshiping God in hope of gaining material wealth is just off to me. But I cannot begrudge the followers.

 8 Aceof Spades, Mon, 3rd Oct '11 11:40:26 PM from The Wild Blue Yonder Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
The prosperity gospel stuff started way back in the 1800's, during the religious fervo of the times. Way before Rand and her philosophy.

There were people who tried back then, but for the most part no one cared to implement social programs or help the less fortunate.
Mystical Monkey Master
[up][up]encouraging poverty is just as bad as televangelist saying "SEND ME YOUR MONEY"
Moar and Moar and Moar
Well, the Prosperity Gospel in some form goes way back, you can see a form of it in the concept of "Divine Right", of course.

But it's been having a major resurgence since the late 90's or so. Back then, that was really before the Prosperity Gospel monicker really made it mainstream, and it was generally referred to back then as Neo-Calvinism, as generally it was being pushed by individuals with a more Calvinistic background. This isn't really the case so much today.

The argument against it, is the argument that you see in this thread, that they're basically "doing it wrong". I disagree with this. Not that I morally agree with the tenets of the Prosperity Gospel..exactly the opposite...but that I think that the PG in one form or another or to one degree or another is the "path of least resistance" from the concept of an interventionist deity. This is also why I find you can pretty cleanly determine one's economic values from their religious language. If they talk about Jesus, chances are they'll oppose this sort of thing. If they talk overwhelmingly about "God" chances are they'll support this sort of thing.

This is the main reason why I'm "anti-theism", in that I believe that the belief in an interventionist deity is quite a dangerous thing. Enough people have their beliefs hedged into either deism or pantheism anyway that downplaying the outright theism shouldn't negatively affect positive religious communities.

One final thing. Yes, the Tea Party movement is by and large a mobilization of Prosperity Gospel/Neo-Calvinistic supporters.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
[up][up]

I don't care about the televangelist doing whatever. What is the problem with encouraging poverty?

"And when Jesus had heard this, he said to him, One thing is lacking to thee yet: Sell all that thou hast and distribute to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in the heavens, and come, follow me."—Luke 18:22

I also plan on taking a Vow of Poverty later, after I pay off the rest of my debt. cool

Mystical Monkey Master
and you will help in destroying a CAPITALIST economy. the whole point of jesus saying that was so people would fall under the "pay taxes to Rome" line. poverty is bad for all in the modern world, unless you play to live in a tent in the woods and kill your diner every night and be a social pariah.
[up][up]I don't think GOD wanted poverty in order to reach us but I have seen it is those who are in poverty who get the message better than rich people.However, not all rich people are the same so it depends.I do say that the true Prosperity GOD promises is not of this world but of the soul.You have to read Ecclastiates because it tells of Solomon talking how he still feels empty even when he has all the riches and splendor of being a king.

edited 4th Oct '11 10:07:01 AM by joyflower

 
 14 Carciofus, Tue, 4th Oct '11 10:08:31 AM from Alpha Tucanae I
Is that cake frosting?
I also plan on taking a Vow of Poverty later, after I pay off the rest of my debt. cool
Cool!*

I suppose that you are thinking of joining some Order; would you mind if I asked you which one?
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

[up][up][up]

lol. I am not exactly a "Capitalist", which relies on the exploitation of the working class. (Though that's hardly the reason I am taking a Vow of Poverty, and I am not a Socialist either). And no I am not living in a tent or killing animals, sorry.

[up][up] I think this is true. The more comfortable you are, the less real problems and hardship you have come across, the easier it is to forget God. Its easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle, than for the rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

[up] I am thinking about joining the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, since they have a lot of younger Sisters (and it would be better to live in community with people my age) and their motherhouse is close by (so I am closer to family). I do want contemplation as part of my charism as well, because that is super important for me.

edited 4th Oct '11 10:17:23 AM by Tiph

 16 Carciofus, Tue, 4th Oct '11 10:13:15 AM from Alpha Tucanae I
Is that cake frosting?
[up][up][up] Depends on what you mean by poverty. God does not want people to die of hunger or of cold, obviously; but he definitely warned against excessive concern about luxuries.

If you consider the Catholic Orders which take a vow of poverty, for example, you will see that their members have more than enough food, a good place to live in, and everything that they need for their ministry. But anything more than that can be accepted only with the approval of the superior, and belongs to the whole order rather than the single individual; for example, when my family wanted to give a laptop to my aunt, who is a nun (she travels a lot, and she now uses it to prepare presentations), she had first to ask her superior if she was allowed to accept it. And even now, it's not technically her laptop — if her superior decides that someone else should have it instead, that's it.

edited 4th Oct '11 10:39:32 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Mystical Monkey Master
here how I reply any "justification by jesus"

1: Jesus was a man

2: my cousin Brian is a man

3: jesus said people should be poor

4: my cousin Brian told me I should go slap a girl's ass

5: I don't listen to brain because its a very bad idea

6: I don't listen to jesus because in economy of my county depends on people buying shit

understand my logic just because a book says you should do something doesn't mean its the right thing to do
[up][up] Hey Carcio I edited my reply to you in my last post. tongue Wasn't ignoring you...

[up] Except Christ Jesus was True God and true man.

And there are more important things than our economy, which only serves to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. It hardly makes a difference in the grand scheme of some billionaire's checkbook if some people decide to dedicate their lives to things other than "buying shit". cool Sorry.

Mystical Monkey Master
says your religion, the Jewish religion says he was a false prophet, Islam says he was not the Messiah but a true prophet.

I communism, i don't like supporting the filthy rich bastards but its better then playing a part in the collapse of my county's and the worlds economy.

edited 4th Oct '11 10:32:36 AM by vanthebaron

 20 Carciofus, Tue, 4th Oct '11 10:32:40 AM from Alpha Tucanae I
Is that cake frosting?
@Tiph: Congratulations! smile

I did not know about these Domenican Sisters, but I am rather familiar with the Dominican Friars (my parents have a lot of friends among them) and I know that Dominicans in general are as badass as it gets. And it's great to see an order with so many young members, in a time such as this one in which religious vocations, in general, appear to be dwindling...

@vanthebaron: Look, this thread is about the Prosperity Gospel, a certain interpretation of Christianity. And, as Tiph said, this interpretation is in wild, glaring contrast with the contents of Christian Scripture. Hence, it is to be rejected. This really has nothing to do with the matter of whether Christianity is or is not true.

edited 4th Oct '11 10:53:51 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Mystical Monkey Master
my point was "Just because some a guy that lived 2000 years ago says it doesn't means it applies to modern day."

edited 4th Oct '11 10:34:08 AM by vanthebaron

 22 Carciofus, Tue, 4th Oct '11 10:36:34 AM from Alpha Tucanae I
Is that cake frosting?
And who is debating this? The point is that, according to some people (including myself), Jesus is something more than just "a guy that lived 2000 years ago"...

edited 4th Oct '11 10:37:10 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Mystical Monkey Master
-van leaves topic-
Moving swiftly on from the stupidity based derail.

This is, I think, what a lot of people across the world will point to as symptomatic of EVERYTHING wrong with the western world in general and America in particular. Its essentially wealth without a sense of noblese oblige or law, because those people have bought the best politicians and they and their progeny deserve to be on top, because Deus Vult.

[up]

Yeah I'll agree with this. "God gave me this wealth" seems like an unhealthy attitude to have. I might go to read some of the actual writings, since I'd be curious on how they fit this in the larger context of Christianity.

@Carcio:

Don't congratulate me yet, I need to pay off my college debt first! Then be accepted...it would be amazing if so. There are a few orders with dominated by younger members—Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal in NYC are younger, and the Dominican Sisters of Tennessee are as well, and still others are a bit of a mix. But yes it is nice. smile

edited 4th Oct '11 10:52:43 AM by Tiph

Total posts: 33
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