Is it possible to be too ambitious to get menial jobs?

USAF: that doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table.

Who watches the watchmen?

Which means the mindset needs to change.

So an empty existence dedicated to surviving is better than a life with actual principles past "what do I get out of it?"

edited 11th Sep '11 12:06:36 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

Probably. But the upper classes dont care about the issue, and the poor have no choice. They either do as theyre told or they try to feed a family from a cardboard box on the street.

What I mean is, why follow that system of morality instead of a different one?

Why is trying to better yourself without screwing others over good?

Yes. And it was right for others to force them to stop. And it's right for radical Islamists to try to destroy us, and it's right for us to try to destroy them.

What do you do to survive in the billions of years until that happens?

Because a system in which everyone tries to better themselves without hurting others would maximize happiness and minimize suffering. It seems logical to me, taking "happiness = good" and "suffering = bad" to be very basic.

I like it! But, I also didn't mean it in a larger moral sense. I was asking whether you thought it was right.

Something I don't have to be a dick to do.

I am now known as Flyboy.

USAF, what makes you a better person for not wanting to lie on an application for a job pushing a mop around? This is not deciding the fate of the free world, this is deciding if you have food for the day or, in the case of many students, some spending money.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

Because I'm still lying, no? I'm saying that I'm superior to these people even though I need them, and it's their money I'm going to be wasting when I walk away later on. I'd be using them as simple tools. People are not tools, and lying to make them into tools is... unbelievable, really.

I am now known as Flyboy.

you're applying to a job to be a tool of another person.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

You do realize those same people you're lying to consider low-wage employees as disposable tools to be thrown out at first sign of being able to make more profit by firing them than retaining them, right?

edited 11th Sep '11 12:18:25 PM by Midgetsnowman

Who says I think employees should be tools, either?

I am now known as Flyboy.

USAF: Again idealism does not work when reality of the attitudes and practices of many employers does not match up. Cherry picking jobs is rarely an option.

Who watches the watchmen?

Idealism is nice, but capitalism doesnt exactly favor treating employees like anything but dirt.

You didn't get the point of Rorschach in Watchmen at all, did you USAF?

Sometimes it's necessary to compromise your morals, especially when it's such a small, trivial matter.

"Delenda est." "Furthermore, Carthage must be destroyed." -Common Roman saying at the end of speeches.

Rorschach was my favorite character...

And yes, I did understand the point. The fact that all the other characters were far less interesting, IMO, was counter-intuitive to this, however.

~shrug~

I can't stop you guys from doing what you will. And I'm obviously far from perfect, so I'll probably fuck up, too. Yet another reason why the world is shit, I guess.

edited 11th Sep '11 12:28:27 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

The world isn't shit unless you're comparing it to some impossible idealistic ideal. I used to think very similarly to you, to be honest. It's far healthier just to accept what is, and instead trying to fix what you can than to compare it to something it'll never be.

"Delenda est." "Furthermore, Carthage must be destroyed." -Common Roman saying at the end of speeches.

Just take the job for a bit and look for superior ones. At the very least its another refference.

Also you could set fire to the place when you leave. Fire makes everything better

Actually, no, I'm pretty sure the world is still shit either way, unless you... nevermind, DERAIL AVERTED.

Yes, because it'll be an excellent reference, Josef. Especially after you burn the place down! I'd see you in jail, not school.

I am now known as Flyboy.

USAF:It does sometimes suck. But occasionally you things work out just don't plan on them doing so. Kind of pessimistic view but these days it helps.

Who watches the watchmen?

Its another refference, for any job thats more worthwhile than no ref at all.

Do you need the money?

edited 11th Sep '11 12:36:46 PM by JosefBugman

Hopefully never so badly that making people a means to an end seems appealing to me.

Ironically, I'll be applying for my first (real) job soon. I wonder how it'll go. I'm less worried about lying about it and more about failing the other requirements.

I am now known as Flyboy.

I don't believe in "right". I believe in "right for X if they want Y".

Hm. That's an interesting form of moral relativism. It's also utterly reprehensible, if taken to its logical conclusion, but, alas, nothing is perfect, it seems.

I am now known as Flyboy.

I dont like it and therefore tend to try to only work for companies I dont find morally reprehensible to work for. But a lot of people dont have that luxury.

A person can be a tool, a friend, an enemy, food, a sexual object, an idol, and all sorts of other things. You may happen to disapprove of using people as tools, but that doesn't mean that they aren't.

edited 11th Sep '11 2:27:09 PM by Tongpu

~shrug~

If you want to believe that that's right, you can do that. I do not, however.

I am now known as Flyboy.