Messily Mixed with MenuTimeLockout: Real Time With Pause

Menu Time Lockout and Real-Time with Pause have basically become inseparably mixed with each other. There are still two tropes in there but as it stands each one is almost a subcategory of the other (whilst not being the same which should be a paradox but isn't) and has a different definition of the other. What's more the definition of the other is very important for the trope.

On Real-Time with Pause, the trope is about real-time games having a pause mechanic where something can be done during the pause. This has several subcategories one of which is Menu Time Lockout defined as any time where Real-Time with Pause is unintentional by the designers. (Incidentally Real-Time with Pause is a bit of a mess even without that, because it's not obvious how Simultaneous Turn Resolution is real-time in anyway)

On Menu Time Lockout the trope is about real-time games having a free action (intentionally but often Fridge Logic). Like changing clothes/picking locks takes no time at all because the game pauses whilst it's being done. It defines Real-Time with Pause as the subcategory of Menu Time Lockout relating to menus (?) some of which isn't fridge logic (like choosing a less common ability).

So we have two problems to resolve. 1. Which is which? 2. How do we separate them? It'd be a big job to change Pausable Realtime because all the examples are put into those categories. Yet it would require a complete redo of Menu Time Lockout because MTL has nothing to do with intention or lack of intention or even fridge logic, which was what the definition might have meant

I can only tell you what I was thinking when I redid the article - people have changed it a little since.

First of all, Simultaneous Turn Based is a subset of Realtime with Pause because it is essentially RTWP with the pause automatically "inflicted" on all users simultaneously at preset intervals. from a programming point of view, the design is largely the same.

As to Menu Time Lockout - that trope was originally not linked to this article at all. I was actually surprised that someone linked it here, as I don't think it describes the same thing described here - as you pointed out.

No idea how to fix that - but I still think that all the subtropes explained in the article are valid here.

Ah okay, I get it. Yeah that bits fine, I'm not even sure it would need more explaining, I think I was just being a little thick there. EDIT: Well unsmart as opposed to thick

edited 31st Aug '11 3:26:59 AM by Tomwithnonumbers

Real-Time with Pause desperately needs its subtropes split away from the article. The description also needs work: most of it can axed, as it doesn't add anything to the explanation of Real-Time with Pause.

• Real-Time with Pause: When a realtime game allows pausing in order to make strategic play easier. No actions can be taken while paused, but you can look around, issue orders, queue up abilities through a clunky interface, etc.
• Menu Time Lockout: When a realtime game pauses the main action in order for the characters to take another action. Changing equipment, using items, playing minigames (if an appropriate one exists during combat), whatever — time freezes while your character does that, then unfreezes once he's finished.
• Simultaneous Turn Resolution: When a turn-based game has its players decide on their actions ahead of time, then the actions of each player take effect simultaneously. Often involves trying to anticipate the other players' moves and choosing actions accordingly.

Really, the current Real-Time with Pause article reads more like a Sliding Scale Of Turn Based Versus Realtime page. Maybe we should make one?

I like all the things you've suggested, the cleaner definitions and the new sliding scale page. The Menu Time Lockout page should probably be tidied up a bit too although that's the definition they were clearly aiming for

Again, Menu Time Lockout's current definition is not the one explained in the Real-Time with Pause article. It's possibly an additional subtrope, but if so, the one explained in this article would then be another, unrelated one.

Menu Time Lockout is currently defined as a game convention whereby opening a menu, especially an intricate menu, pauses the main action. This is akin to the basic Pause feature in Real-Time with Pause, except it only works within menus - whereas basic Real-Time with Pause is meant to be activated during main play, with or without access to menus involved. Therefore, Menu Time Lockout is a subset of Real-Time with Pause - a limited version of it, to be exact.

The definition of this in the Real-Time with Pause, however, is a completely different one. Here, it is defined as an unintentional use of the Pause action to exploit the game - unintentional because the game was obviously just meant to be paused. There are several examples of this at the bottom of the article, all of which are valid to this definition, not to the Menu Time Lockout article's definition. The key word is unintentional, whereas Menu Time Lockout is a gameplay feature deliberately added to make complex menus useable during heavy action.

As I said, I originally wrote this definition under the title "Unintentional Real-Time With Pause". Someone came along and edited it, replacing this with "Menu Time Lockout", for god knows what reason. Please take this to mind when making any significant alterations like the ones suggested here.

I don't really think we need to split Realtime With Pause into "intentional" and "unintentional" variants. We can make a note in the description that sometimes it's unintentional, but having an entire split off section for it seems excessive to me.

You're the one who suggested to split them off. I think the way they're used now is just fine - as subtypes, which is what they are. Many articles here work that way. I don't see what the issue is to begin with. My only issue is that Menu Time Lockout is not what this article describes, so IMHO that link shouldn't be here.

I've fixed that one then. It's clearly not MTL (although MTL isn't just about menus Headrock, is seems to be more about being able to complete an action whilst the game is paused so the action happens instantaneously in realtime "Menus are the most common place for this to occur, but it often happens with certain other types of interactions. "). At least that will fix up a bit of the confusion.

I think a trope on unintentional variants would be good or at least a trope on unintentional variants of MTL because I'm thinking instant ammo loading, weapon switches and instant cooldown recharges are a pretty common exploit, although it's more an MTL thing than a Realtime Pause thing

As I said, the idea is that it's still Real-Time with Pause - just not an intentional application of it. As such I really don't think there's room to expand this to a separate article - there aren't enough examples to warrant that anyway.

Also, how about adding a fifth subtype for Menu Time Lockout?

edited 2nd Sep '11 5:55:51 AM by Headrock

My whole point in post 4 was that neither Menu Time Lockout nor Simultaneous Turn Resolution should actually be on the Realtime With Pause page, since they're not subtypes of Realtime With Pause. They're mutually exclusive, so they should have their own pages.

Menu Time Lockout and his trope aren't mutually exclusive though, I don't think.

Real-Time with Pause it at it's simplest a real time game where some things can be done whilst the game is paused. MTL is where the pausing creates a situation where some actions can be done instantaneously. I open up a menu that pauses the game, and I consume some food for health. When I close the menu and unpause the game no time has passed so I've managed to eat a whole pig in 0 seconds.

So MTL is a subtrope, it's the subtrope where actions can be performed during the pause (as opposed to just setting waypoints for troops or assessing the situation or selecting an ability to be used)

Now Simulataneous Turn Resolution as has been pointed out in the thread, actually works out like a Realtimegame with mandatory pauses but I would support deanchoring it from the thread because a non-animated turn based game can have it too. Say I was playing a card game like hearts and we all had to play a good at the same time as each other. That's str but it's still not really a realtime game because all the game doesn't happen in freeflow.

Realtime With Pause and Menu Time Lockout are two completely different things. Realtime With Pause is about realtime games that allow you to pause to examine the situation and issue orders that take effect once you unpause. Menu Time Lockout is when a realtime game pauses in order to allow you to take another action, like changing equipment or playing a minigame.