The boundaries of child abuse

Spanking is an appropriate punishment in certain cases, however lying and urinating are not those cases.

I find the lying bit especially funny, how often do you lie? It's one of the tenets of society: Thou shalt lie when it serves your purposes.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

@thatguythere: yeah, if you spank your kid for lying, you'd better hand him the paddle when you are finished. Chances are you've told twice as many fibs that day.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

I'd say a lot depends on how much hot sauce was used. Even if you have a very mild tolerance for spice, in small quantities it's not going to cause truly severe levels of pain. I mean, suppose I serve a child chicken wings without mentioning that they were cooked in a very spicy buffalo sauce; if the child doesn't like how spicy the wings end up being, does that make me an abuser?

Oh, this thread again.

I still have to say: Would people's opinions be different if the parent had pinned their child down and sprayed them in the eyes with pepper spray instead of using hot sauce?

Be not afraid...

@Loni: My opinion would remain the same...that it was a stupid thing to do, and callous in the bargain since it was obviously done so that the mother could attention-whore. I'd just feel a lot stronger about it.

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

The article in the OP said that the hot sauce was sprayed in the child's mouth, not their eyes. That makes a world of difference.

@ Post 28: If you did it with the intent of malice, yes.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

Regardless of how severe or mild, justified or unjustified the interpretation of the woman's actions, her intent wasn't to retrain the child. It was to get attention for herself. Therefore, her actions could be considered abusive.

However, I have to ask, if this had been done in the privacy of a home without the intent to be submitted to a show, would people still feel it as abusive?

I don't know the availability of mental health provider's for children in Alaska, but I know it can't be that hard. But had the mother been implementing these punishments without the intent of television, would that change the context enough?

I've been pretty creative with my son in trying to guide his behavior away from lying or talking back. But nothing like this. Sometimes it's just not letting him pick his own clothes as a quick example. My kid doesn't respond to spanking very well. So I've had to try other things, mainly in the lines of removing a privilege or narrowing his choices.

But I would never throw him in a cold shower or use hot sauce on him. I much rather make him give his favorite toy to charity after a counselling session than something that cruel.

The key with punishment is that it's supposed to be guiding a principle. You don't (insert bad behavior) because it breaks your mommy's heart and makes that (privilege) go away. Or even that your bum gets really sore. There is no principle in what she was doing except do what she says so she doesn't get angry.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Maybe my priorities are a little off, but physical abuse that does not actually effect any damage to the child's body, as monstrous as the example in the OP is, seems less severe than forcing the child to part with something he or she has established a close connection with.

I was beaten sporadically as a kid, and I don't really think much of it. The mindgames had much more of an impact.

edited 2nd Feb '12 9:05:15 PM by Gwirion

You are a blowfish.

Agreed. When anyone—not even just a child—forms an attachment to someone or something, it can be pretty damaging to just essentially rip it out of their hands, no matter what it is they did. As terrible and morally bankrupt as a person has to be to commit physical abuse, psychological scars last much longer than physical ones.

Punishment is something that needs to be handled delicately, in a way that asserts your authority but does not make you seem cruel or like someone who only sees in Hate-O-Vision(TM).

EDIT: Wow, I keep editing this post like it's a thesis paper.

edited 3rd Feb '12 2:38:45 AM by 0dd1

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

Yup. Physical scars heal. True, they might look a bit unsightly and restrict movement a little, but you're truly unlucky if they continue to hurt long after the fact.

Psychological abuse, however, is the kind that just keep on giving the pain. For years. If not handled properly, it snowballs down the generations.

Now, which is the worst, again?

edited 3rd Feb '12 4:28:40 PM by Euodiachloris

What would you have me do then? Keep spanking him whenever the behavior isn't changing? Make him rot along the wall in time out? Add a belt instead of my hand?

If something doesn't work, I'm not going to escalate it and hope that that's going to fix it. Then it does move to abuse. If spanking with my hand doesn't change his behavior, I'm not spanking period.

Again, parents are sometimes forced to be creative in other ways that aren't abusive. I tried having him pick out what to donate before, giving him a small box to fill and had him take it to Goodwill. The next day he was in trouble again for the exact same thing with even more apathy. So I took his favorite truck. That made him cry. I explained to him the sadness he was feeling then was the same level of sadness he gave me, his friends, and his teachers when he continues to act out and behave wrong. It only took one time for him to not do it again. And I haven't had to go to those lengths since. But it wouldn't stop me from doing it again if I had to.

edited 3rd Feb '12 6:44:51 PM by Gabrael

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Gabrael, you're doing fine. If anything you're doing a lot better than most people.

Abuse is measured by the effect on the child for the most part. And the mom in the original article needs to go to jail as well as her jerk husband.

There was an episode of Judging Amy that was actually based on a real case. The family was ganging up on the youngest of five and including him in the tickling sessions where the boy was screaming in pain begging them to stop. The parents couldn't understand that forcing their youngest (who in the real life case was mildly autistic) to partake in family bonding events that the other children loved was actually perceived as abuse to the boy. In the show the boy got to stay with his parents. In real life, the boy was taken from his parents when they refused to go to the mandatory counselling sessions that the judge ordered because they felt their son just needed "extra attention".

He's doing well now.

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc

To re-emphasize, her original punishments were deemed not bad enough to be on television, which is what led to the hot-saucing.

I've tossed my kids into a cold shower, but not as a punishment. (Unless "getting sunburned" is worthy of a punishment.)

Most of my childhood beatings came at the hands of other children. But I do remember having my older sister throw one of her hardcover textbooks at my head.*

She missed, but the gouge stayed in the drywall until we moved out of that house. For all I know it's still there.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

I don't know how to raise your kid, just that broadly speaking, donating your child's favorite toy to Goodwill seems a fairly sadistic way of teaching empathy.

Sometimes, kids won't learn immediately. But what you tell them may click a few months down the line, without you having lifted a hand or said a disparaging word. Also, if your kid is doing something that warrants such harsh disciplining, maybe look at where the behavior is coming from, as opposed to how to curtail it.

You are a blowfish.

Jesus Christ...

@Blue Ninja, some things are different when in the context of a punishment than in the need of medical treatment. Making someone strip down to their underwear and measuring their body and checking for ailments is different then making your kid strip to their underwear and walk around because of a negative behavior.

While I'm confident you know this I'm uncertain other members of this tread do. So forgive me for wishing to elaborate on your words.

@Gwirion, using the term sadistic is way too heavy and loaded. As a mental health professional I'm going to say that I have never had any kids come in my care for having their toys taken away. But I have plenty who's parents thought spaking in various degrees were fine.

There is nothing sadistic about removing a possession from someone in the strict context that Gabrael has given us. She provided her son with a clear line of communication. A+B=C mentality is what kids need. They need a why. Too many parent's don't communicate with their children well enough on their level.

And to follow it, I think it's funny how you would latch onto her saying she took a favorite toy away after a counselling session. So obviously that means that she's trying multiple avenues with multiple healthy points to clear the problem.

Considering that her child has been the subject of bullying, that could be aggravating why he is acting out. And as other people in this thread have pointed out, attending to those needs from the very beginning instead of just "letting kids be kids" doesn't always help the situation.

So chill it out before we start throwing around words used to describe sociopaths on parents who rather not just slap the stupid out of their kids.

edited 5th Feb '12 11:57:23 AM by Polarstern

"Oh wait. She doesn't have a... Forget what I said, don't catch the preggo. Just wear her hat." - Question Marc