IGN: Mario Kirby and Donkey Kong haven't evolved since the SNES.

Long running series have been introducing at least one new core mechanic per installment for so long that it's no longer enough to qualify as innovation.

However, that still means that the games are not exactly clones of each other.

edited 14th Aug '11 7:15:03 AM by Recon5

Huh? Moving around in the DS Zelda games was great.

But not when trying to attack. The controls weren't perfectly responsive, and trying to move and attack with a stylus only is much harder than a D-Pad and a Button.

I liked it for the Maps and Items, but it was completely unneeded for moving. Especially since the rolling worked only around half the time as well.

Maybe it was a problem for you...

And they revamped the rolling in Spirit Tracks.

It doesn't change that it's still harder(to move around). It does require more effort. And yes, they fixed in the ST, but in PH, it was bad.

Regardless, meh control issues aside, the major problem is that controls aren't much of an evolution in gameplay. That, and the Zelda games don't need evolution in the current gameplay outside of returning the sandbox. That's where it's suffering the most right now.

People actually had problems rolling in the DS games? Just hold the stylus to run, then quickly double-tap the edge of the screen, and keep the stylus compressed after the second tap.

edited 14th Aug '11 11:53:14 AM by SpellBlade

@Beorc

No, it's not.

I'll compare Battlefield and COD.

Each new COD is the same with a few new maps and maybe a tacked on gimmick like the Decoy Grenade. Most of the same guns stick around, they use the same engine, even the killstreaks largely stay the same. It's pretty much the same game everytime.

Battlefield, on the other hand, has evolved with each new game.

Battlefield 1942 was a WW 2 game where two sides got to gether and got in a massive battle with vehicles.

Skip forward a little bit. Battlefield 2 comes out, and it's still considered one of the best FPS out there.

Then skip forward to Battlefield Bad Company. The devs decide to bring the game to consoles, and make a full campaign. Most importantly, they introduce Frostbite, their new engine.

Frostbite changes the way Battlefield is played. Now players have to think more about cover and as a result develop new tactics.

Then skip forward to Battlefield Bad Company 2. Frostbite is enhanced once more and now players can bring down entire buildings. This makes attacking areas easier since you can level buildings. In addition to that, a greater emphasis on Rush mode is introduced.

Now we're at Battlefield 3, the true sequel to Battlefield 2. Now they're once again enhancing the engine. Now players can punch smaller and more precise holes in walls instead of bringing the whole wall down. This will once again result in new tactics developed by players.

That's the difference between evolution and tacked on gimmicks.

edited 14th Aug '11 11:58:24 AM by TheProffesor

I didn't have a problem with the stylus control in Spirit Tracks. (Haven't played Phantom Hourglass so I can't comment there) I think it was quite good actually. In my opinion, it's not really a gimmick in the negative meaning of the word.

BS, Mario has evolved. IGN sucks ass.

And even if they haven't, how is that a bad thing? Those titles are prime examples of how sticking to a basic and established formula is not a terrible crime. Sure, there have been tweaks here and there, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I think my point is valid.

Nintendo has the ability to make great new I Ps, but they keep playing it safe.

Sure they still make pretty neat games, but we could be getting alot more.

Playing as the red plumber is cool but sometimes I want to try something different, and Nintendo is the best at making something different.

Well it's important to note that Nintendo DOES make new I Ps more often than most people think. They just don't do as well, not as heavily covered, and often overshadowed by Mario/Zelda/DK's popularity.

Very true. The same applies to several other companies. Why should Capcom revive some old IP from the 80s/90s or make a new one when Street Fighter IV is selling like hotcakes?

I'm curious now, Mr. Proffesor. Which Mario games have you played?

Aside from the spinoff sports games, Super Mario Bros, Super Mario Bros 3, New Super Mario Bros, Super Mario 64, both Galaxy games. That's what I can name off the top of my head.

I've also played Donkey Kong Country, Kirby Dreamland and Kirby Airriders.

edited 14th Aug '11 1:56:05 PM by TheProffesor

Have you atleast done research on the rest of the main series Mario games? Because they've evolved quite a lot. I will admit that the 3D games got a bit gimmicky at times. But far from not being innovative.

I disagree on your definition of innovation. I'd say innovation is trying something unique that's never been done before, which the Mario Galaxy games, IMO, do. Evolution isn't bad, but that doesn't mean trying something different means it's a tacked-on gimmick.

I'd say it's only a gimmick when it doesn't work well at all. It's generally worse when it removes great features from older games to promote that particular new ability/style.

For example, Super Mario Sunshine removed the ability to kick/punch from Super Mario 64 so F.L.U.D.D. can do pretty much everything whatsoever. FLUDD wasn't bad by any means, it was an unique idea, but the problem is, they also removed the long jump as well(which was something that was there even in the first game practically). The one where you pick up huge amounts of speed to make a very "long" jump.

True, but it can be a misstep in the player's eyes. I didn't like using FLUDD in Super Mario Sunshine, not to mention that 64/Sunshine/Galaxy tended to be decried in some circles for not being like the preceding game ("Mario's in 3D/uses a water jetpack but is missing some of his jumps/is missing the water jetpack and is now in space?! Ruined FOREVER!").

Ninja'd.

edited 14th Aug '11 2:21:27 PM by X2X

To be honest, I'd say 3D-wise, he de-evolved. Super Mario 64 wasn't perfect, but the controls were pretty responsive. He also had a plethora of moves as well. Really, about the only complaint I'd say is justified is the lack of power-ups.(which is... 3?)

Sunshine had about the same amount of power-ups in general. (not counting the basic FLUDD function) The thing is, Mario is practically on ice when it comes to platforms. Trying to land on anything is harder than it was in 64 as is, likewise, the swimming mechanics were changed around, making it a bit more difficult. On the other hand, you actually had to aim your attacks for watering something, and didn't have some auto-aim feature to "baby" you like the 3D Zelda games does.(although they do make for interesting one-on-one battles)

As for Galaxy, it had more power-ups, but you had even less basic attack options than in Sunshine. You could jump... and spin, and that was it.

That's fine, though. Mario is really more known for stomping on enemies that he is for doing a one-two punch combo followed by a kick. His jumping abilities make the game, not his attack options. Not to mention that he's had the spin jump since World, so using it kills two birds with one stone: he has a way to increase the length of his jumps and he has an alternative to Goomba Stomping.

More or less, why add something interesting and take it away? That was kind of my point. Cool options being removed for little reason. I think it had more to do with the controls(in Galaxy's case) then anything else.

Sunshine didn't bother me on the removing attack options, though. And he could spin in Sunshine too, I believe.

To be fair, you could also shoot star bits at enemies in Galaxy. Although does the C button do anything in the Galacy games? They could've set that to the punch button...although like X 2 X said, I don't really think it's particularly necessary.

I think it puts the camera behind you, but I'm not too sure of that myself. Warrants a check.

EDIT: Just went and checked it. I was right.

edited 14th Aug '11 3:18:08 PM by Folt

I believe it recenters the camera like Folt said.