Court Strikes down mandatory healthcare

Well then, don't act as a citizen of the United States of America. Go to another country. Get citizenship there.

"Well, I can't!" Okay. So let's say you have private firms. None of them have the terms you want. What you gonna do? Same damned thing: if none of the countries in existence have terms identical to what you want, you're in limbo just as if there were no private firms giving you what you want. You have to pick something.

Mindless ideology against having a public system is absurd.

Medicare is not about to fall apart. Period.

edited 13th Aug '11 3:57:47 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Your still not backing it up. Your just still yelling "Government is bad" talking points. If you don't like it go live in the woods. Believe me, the Government doesn't care enough to search for you.

[[If I refuse to do business with the government, they can kidnap me. ]]

Surely this is sarcasm right? In the UK, we have private hospitals that exist outside the NHS.

Actually Deux's point about quality had to be addressed. It was a valid concern. Nonetheless, I countered by pointing out that the NHS was a perfectly good, high-quality health care service that will cover you in the vast majority of cases (there are a few top of the line drugs it sometimes can't afford. But not everyone can afford the insurance payments to cover for such front-line treatments either, and the vast majority of medicines are available.)

I haven't been through this yet but this may be helpful.

Medicare is not about to fall anywhere, deux. It just needs more revenue to fund its costs, and we refuse to raise taxes over some ideological principles.

Basically, the only way we'd ever fail to pay for medicare beneficiaries is if some idiots failed to raise the debt ceiling, while simultaneously failing to pass a budget that raised sufficient revenue to actually pay for all of our expenses without having to borrow further.

I'll grant that with the Tea Party in power, that is theoretically possible, but, again, this is a case of people getting into government for the sole purpose of proving that it doesn't work.

edited 13th Aug '11 4:01:15 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Medicaid is not a UHC service. Its a government subsidising of private individuals for the benefit of ensuring they can pay for private coverage. That is why it doesn't work, while NHS and other UHC systems do.

"Government can kidnap you," you say?

Right...

So can business... if not for the government.

edited 13th Aug '11 4:01:45 PM by USAF713

"Government can kidnap you" just means "You get thrown in jail if you don't pay your taxes" but in more bombastic terms.

Why do some Yanks fear their government to do anything? Do they not know what the point of having one is?

edited 13th Aug '11 4:03:26 PM by whaleofyournightmare

Many don't, or resist that knowledge. There's a strong "pioneer mentality" in America, which is a consequence of its origins as a frontier society. Europe's had hundreds of years to get used to the idea of a strong central government, while the U.S. was (notionally, if not in fact) founded on opposition to that concept.

edited 13th Aug '11 4:06:14 PM by Fighteer

"Surely this is sarcasm right? In the UK, we have private hospitals that exist outside the NHS. "

But if you refuse to fund the government ones what happens to you?

"and we refuse to raise taxes over some ideological principles. "

Because increased taxes NEVER go to where they are claimed to go, and increasing taxes isn't going to work anyways (it often leads to reduced income. Economics, ho!). Nor will it stop Medicare from being a Ponzi in nature. Even just stabilizing the budget, not cutting anything (limit increases to inflation+population growth) we would quickly (as far as budgets go) is less of a gamble for deficit reduction, and we haven't done that.

edited 13th Aug '11 4:12:01 PM by deuxhero

[[But if you refuse to fund the government ones what happens to you? ]]

Well, the same thing that happens to most tax evaders which is either you get fined or jailed as the money for the NHS now comes out of the general taxation receipts.

edited 13th Aug '11 4:10:20 PM by whaleofyournightmare

Black is positive, red is negative.

^ And just what do you THINK a "deficit" is...

Exactamundo.

edited 13th Aug '11 4:13:54 PM by deuxhero

You'd use RED ink if you were running a deficit.

In any event, you haven't actually made an argument. You've just said you distrust government. I mean, the fact of the matter is that people who benefit from Social Security and Medicare are, on average, pretty damned happy with those programs. And the government has been paying for those programs to be active. And we know how much those programs are costing.

What is true is that there's some discrepancy between how we originally intended to pay for those programs, and how we're actually paying for them, but the fact of the matter is that we are paying for those programs out of our Net Total Revenue. And in order to cover all our Net Total Expenses, we could then raise more Net Total Revenue. Saying "Oh, taxes never go to what they say they'll go to" is missing the point. Taxes go to the government to pay for stuff.

edited 13th Aug '11 4:16:31 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Exactly.

Deux, if it is, overall, half the price for everyone to use UHC, and attains a better quality (the UK is ranked 15th in the world for healthcare, the US 37th) of care overall, then surely it is financially expedient to put in place that system?

The statistics are there in black and white. If our government can manage this, what is wrong with Americas government, that it cannot manage the same?

edited 13th Aug '11 4:18:35 PM by GameChainsaw

And just where do these rankings come from? Some group that supports government healthcare? Misstated numbers (INFANT MORTALITY AND DEATH RATE ARE NOT COMPARABLE)?

edited 13th Aug '11 4:21:08 PM by deuxhero

"Government is bad." That is Deux argument. It's not backed up. "It's not sourced. But if it comes from the Government, it must be bad."

A better question is, how do you decide who has better healthcare? Does promptness of service factor into that?

Deux, the UK has a population of about a 1/6th of the USA yet we spend £126 billion on healthcare which about approx. what the USA spends ($793 billion/6) but our healthcare well better than yours.

edit: And just where do these rankings come from?

The OECD website.

edited 13th Aug '11 4:20:56 PM by whaleofyournightmare

And where does this "Better" number come from?

From independent agencies that exist to produce facts about the effectiveness of government. You have any better ideas about how to find information about governments?

I mean, sure, we could probably give actual citations, but be honest deux: If we did, would you believe the information?

For the sake of being reasonable, now is definitely the time to find some hard citations. Anyone have anything bookmarked?

edited 13th Aug '11 4:21:23 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Here. Its a google search away. Source is the WHO.

Ok, we're 18th. I can't believe how badly France is thrashing us, but at least we've beaten Germany at something.