bashing: After Last Season

@Deboss:

This is not about expression opinion. This is about referencing widespread critical responses. I don't think, for example, there is anything wrong with pointing out that the Last Airbender adaptation received an overwhelmingly negative critical reception. Or, in case of After Last Season, to reference the widespread bafflement with the plot and questioning of the creators' motives. And, given that the only reason this page exists at all is because of After Last Seasons notoriety, which is due entirely to its flaws, not referencing those flaws at all (and describing them as such), seems disingenuous.

edited 20th Aug '11 10:03:27 PM by Strannik

Accumulated opinions are still opinions.

If the only reason the page is here is to take shots at the work, we should cut the page.

Bashing is not the only purpose, obviously, but this movie is notorious for being legendarily awful. Not mentioning this notoriety is sort of like not mentioning that Citizen Kane is widely regarded as the best film of all time. It is not "bashing" to point out that Plan 9 from Outer Space is a camp classic because of Ed Wood's ineptness, just like it isn't "gushing" to point out that James Cameron's Avatar succeeds in large part because of its ground-breaking special effects.

edited 21st Aug '11 7:28:47 PM by Strannik

I agree, especially in the case where something is popular because it's bad, like Plan 9 From Outer Space or The Eye Of Argon, mentioning that fact somewhere in the description shouldn't be a problem. Of course, the description shouldn't focus on that in any case. I agree with Deboss to that extent. But to forbid any mention of the reason for the work's popularity/notoriety seems like it's going too far.

In the case of the Airbender movie, the fan hatred is not particularly significant; the movie would have been either popular or notorious regardless, because of the show's large fan base, so that example doesn't fit here. On the other hand, Citizen Kane would be a forgotten movie about a forgotten historical figure if it weren't other factors that Deboss seems to want to forbid us to mention, like being a spectacularly well-made movie.

If it would be forgotten, it's clearly not that well made. Or it wouldn't be forgotten. I thought that was pretty obvious?

No, it is not obvious at all. Movies are remembered for different reasons. Some are remembered because they're good. Some are remembered because they're bad. Some are remembered for other reasons.

And that reason isn't important, because we don't focus on that, we focus on tropes. Which are objectively present in the work.

Not for nothing, but while I personally wouldn't mind a small mention of the public reaction in the description of works pages, that really does belong on a work's YMMV page.

"We don't focus on that" is not the same as "any mention of that is absolutely verbotten, and anyone who mentions it even in passing shall have their words expunged with fire." Critical/popular reaction shouldn't be the focus, but I see no harm in a mention. Especially if it's a truly broad reaction, and not just Fan Myopia. (I'm much happier purging Fan Myopia reactions, positive or negative. The general reaction to the Airbender movie, for example, was mostly "meh", which is hardly worth a mention.)

edited 23rd Aug '11 11:55:42 AM by Xtifr

And that mention can go on the YMMV page. Because that's where reactions go. The main page is for stuff that is focused on.

And "can" is not the same as "has to". I agree with "can". I even agree with "should be encouraged to". I disagree with "has to".

@Deboss: And I must once again point out that you are arguing for a standard that does not actually exist in TV Tropes. If you want to argue that what you're proposing should be a universal rule, fine - but it isn't.

edited 23rd Aug '11 2:34:00 PM by Strannik

We're using different definitions of "can". The reaction can be put on a YMMV, the reaction cannot be put on the main. If anything, turning the intro of the YMMV into a "how the work was received financially" would be a good idea. That's normally trivia though, like how much the movie cost. Reception and other padding like it isn't something that should ever be welcomed on the main page.