Taiwan's Independence

No, their government wants UN status. The people seem content with how it is currently.

"The status quo" was in reference to relationship with China. Did you see a "join U.N." option anywhere? no.

Joesolo, I understand that you prefer Taiwanese independence and you also prefer Taiwanese UN status but the polls clearly indicate the people do not want that. Status quo includes UN membership status. You think Taiwanese have no clue what that means? I feel you're trying to twist the meaning and words of each and every poll or government action or event in order to favour your viewpoint in an unrealistic manner.

Taiwan's government swings far more right than the people and I really wouldn't trust government actions to remotely reflect what the Taiwanese want. They don't protest all the time because their government listens to them.

I've said this before but I should point it out again. You have a luxury of blindly going for separatist or independence movements because it's not your backyard and it's not your family. You aren't the one that has to live with separated relatives because of an idiotic civil war and you aren't the one that has to live with a nation divided in a globalised world. Even if Taiwan separates as a nation, they will have to join up with China in an economic alliance anyway to compete globally against other powers (including China) to get favourable trade deals and the like.

*slow clap* Well said. I couldn't word that out without being thumped. How many times have I said that there's no need for Taiwan to become totally independant due to the impracticality of it?

edited 1st Jun '12 5:49:55 PM by Cassie

No offense, be says who? Who says that union with china was not the only issue? None of us personally took the poll, and seeing as it was on RELATIONS WITH CHINA(rejoin/independence/status quo), I see no reason to believe UN membership was involved. We'd need a totally separate poll.

Impractical? Uh...how? it's effectively independent already...

edited 1st Jun '12 6:06:00 PM by Joesolo

@Derelict

Taiwan seeks status quo while seeking UN recognition. It might seem contradictory but Ro C has been repeatedly trying to get some kind of recognition from UN, even as it's enjoying its de facto independence.

Status quo does not equal to "Taiwan belongs to PRC." Yet that's UN's current stance. In other words, Taiwan's status quo does not approve of current UN status.

^ Technically speaking, status as a nation is via how other nations (their governments anyway) regard you and the UN does not have jurisdiction over this, if I remember international law correctly. Status as a UN member is, however, a symbolic gesture toward being a separate nation. You're never going to have multiple representing entities for the same country, so by definition, if you seek status, you're seeking independence. So it's legally contradictory to seek status quo and UN membership status.

And while Taiwan enjoys the recognition of 23 member states, that's actually a massive drop from what it used to be (which was basically everyone). Remember, the way the P Ro C superceded the Ro C in representing China in the UN was due to a General Assembly vote, because the US vetoed Security Council attempts spearheaded by Russia. So if you want to argue something like what the international community wants, they already voted on that; they wanted P Ro C.

What do I prefer? A democratic unified China. Is that possible? Yes. There's a long road to go on before we get there but if Taiwan can end its military dictatorship, eventually China will have a democratic system (probably some sort of elitest republic from the looks of it but oh well).

I do think the preferable outcome for all concerned is that China becomes a better regime to the point where the Taiwanese would be interested in greater integration, possibly in the fashion of Hong Kong etc (or, at least, what was intended there; the PRC has overstepped its agreements in some places). The majority appears to wish for that if it were possible, but they appear to consider the current government of the PRC to be incompatible with that, for now.

@breadloaf: yes, I know that the US supported Taiwan out of Cold War realpolitik; enemies of the Reds were our friends, no matter what they did. Still, the present day Taiwan is a good deal freer and more democratic than the PRC is, and I would not support suppressing those things as the price of better US-China relations.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: Taiwan is already functionally independent from China, so it should be declared independent, because refusing to acknowledge reality just makes you look petty and stupid.

We really need a Circle Breaker here, because we are going in circles about this whole thing. For Taiwan to declare independence from China is to acknowledge taking a hostile stand with China, and in Chinese Law, seperatism is high treason, and ANY of the provinces are not exceptions. Invasion isn't needed, but can be rightfully executed, if it means to exact the punishments. By continuing to preach that Taiwan should declare independence is to have Taiwan be put into that hotspot

But under the current status quo, Taiwan doesn't acknowledge the PRC as having any authority over them, so they'd qualify as treasonous anyway.

@ Raven/Others

There's a very large difference between what you're talking about and what is going on. Functional independence means almost nothing when you've situations like Hong Kong and Macao who are flying Chinese flags under different systems.

Essentially what you are saying is that Hong Kong and Macao, both basically defenceless city-states, are able to keep up their political/economic arrangements in the face of China, while a place as big and powerful as Taiwan cannot? I should think that a two-system, one-state, solution works perfectly fine for Taiwan. There's no freedoms or anything to give up. Pretending that your only solutions are "evil dictatorship" and "super free Taiwan", both of which are nowhere grounded in reality, is ignoring what is actually happening. The solutions offered on the table, as of today, is the US feeding billions of dollars worth of weapons into Taiwan year after year to support a corrupt republican regime or to accept a two-system one-state offer (which to me, seems less costly).

edited 2nd Jun '12 12:02:57 PM by breadloaf

Taiwan's only OFFICIALLY recognized by 23, theres many more that unofficially recognize them. The only reason it's unofficial is Mainland China refuses relations if you have relations with Taiwan. Thus, most countries do the simple math of "second most powerful, highest population, 4th largest, 2nd best military and massive trader vs regional power"...It's depressing they have to do that...

edited 2nd Jun '12 12:30:06 PM by Joesolo

By that reasoning you would have to say that Hong Kong and Macau would also have to be given de facto independence and not merely special administrative divisions.

Unofficial acknowledgement doesn't help Taiwan in this context.

The status quo seems... acceptable. I'd prefer to draw out US resources involved in the matter, however.

@ Abstractematics

That's your reasoning extended to Hong Kong and Macao, which is why I think it doesn't work well in a real world situation.

edited 2nd Jun '12 2:58:24 PM by breadloaf

Well, it's really all-but-official. If it's official, mainland China breaks relations and thats a little more worry some for most countries.

Oh I forgot to respond about the official recognition. So basically how it works is like this:

Mideast/Africa, making up many members of the UN, as well as Russia/friends backed the P Ro C because they were friends with them and not Taiwan. After the near total victory in the civil war, the P Ro C embarked on a diplomatic campaign centered mostly on Africa to get votes in the UN. So it was not a decision between "the most populous country in the world or Taiwan", they actually became friends. Diplomacy is something that the West seems to think China lacks but they do not. They're friends with countries from Africa to Latin America much to our chagrin and worse, they wouldn't be friends with Taiwan because Taiwan does nothing for them.

International relations are what they are, and I would prefer them to be otherwise, but basically Taiwan was a big dick and douchebag to everyone, so everyone sided with P Ro C instead.

It's nowhere even close to the high and mighty ideal you seem to talk about. The 23 nations recognise Taiwan to be better buddies with the US. Alright, maybe I over-generalise, but hardly anybody cares about who should rule what there. Nobody is going to step inbetween a dispute in China/Taiwan. Everyone is just playing a politics game.

edited 2nd Jun '12 3:17:29 PM by breadloaf

Actually, Taiwan does do things for them. They are just as active diplomatically as mainland China. They've helped countries develop their militaries and police, as well as building public buildings and such for them.

However, they just dont have the resources of mainland china in that regard.

edited 2nd Jun '12 3:19:20 PM by Joesolo

Unofficial recognition is helpful to Taiwan from a military perspective. It doesn't do anything for them with regards to UN recognition, however.

Only recently, they're playing catch-up. China's been doing this since the 50s. If the Taiwanese (government) didn't believe in their destined right to rule all of China for all the years of their military dictatorship, they wouldn't be in this mess. They just figured that they had the right to rule China without any diplomacy even after essentially losing the civil war.

And now it's way too late because China's resources far eclipses Taiwan, and that was not always the case. These days, you sell China 100 million barrels of oil, you get railroads and schools across your whole country. Taiwan is like 10 years late on that kind of trading.

edited 2nd Jun '12 3:21:11 PM by breadloaf

No, they won't. The PRC will just regard it as another uprising like in Tibet (and deal with it in the same manner). They at smart enough to not go nuts as long as status quo is maintained, but the moment Taiwan declares independence shit's going o hi the fan. You can think of it as stupid and petty, but that's what it'll do.

Especially with current events PRC will think it will get away with it too.

edited 2nd Jun '12 5:09:45 PM by IraTheSquire

@breadloaf: If Taiwan started flying PRC flags and referred to themselves as part of the PRC while otherwise maintaining the status quo, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It seems like a silly arrangement, but harmless.

However, under the current status quo, Taiwan doesn't even give the PRC that sort of meager, token recognition. They operate completely independently from the PRC and don't pledge loyalty to it or respect its authority. That makes them independent from the PRC. Whether they sign a written statement to that effect or get acceptance from the international community is irrelevant as far as the definition of independence is concerned.

It's like, if I perform surgery on people, that makes me a surgeon. Even if I don't have a medical license, and the medical community (and society in general) says I have no right to perform surgery, so long as I do perform surgery, I'm still a surgeon no matter what anyone says.

edited 2nd Jun '12 7:11:13 PM by RavenWilder

Well, it does matter and it doesn't matter.

I believe the difference consists of de facto independence and de jure independence, which, if I recall my meager Latin correctly, means independence in fact and independence in law. I could very well be wrong, however.

And if there were a global government with the authority to determine which countries are legal nations and which are not, that would be a meaningful distinction. As things stand now, though, the world of international politics is a lawless anarchy, so there are no laws for a country to be legitimate under.