Taiwan's Independence

There was a RoC unit trained by German officers after a German model, but support in finances and weapons and so on? Not so much.

edited 16th Apr '12 2:19:41 AM by Octo

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Well I forget what the point of that derailment was, but the Soviets didn't support Mao.

@ Quiese

Yes, exactly.

@ Abstract

Democracies need to reform and improve as well, whenever they face these types of mass protests, so there's no difference in solution. People get angry enough to riot over a period of poor policy choices, the proper response is to improve the policies in place. That seems simple enough to me.

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The thing is, I spent many of the pages discussing the pragmatic benefits of unification.

• Less military tension, less need to spend on the military.
• Reunion of families and loved ones split apart by the civil war.
• Better conditions for the growth and progress of democracy.

While most, if not all, of the arguments for independent Taiwan rests on

• The people want to be independent
• This is more democratic
• Don't see a point to unification

Two of those arguments rests on something I had taken as a given, that the Taiwanese people wish to be independent. When I took that away, both the arguments for the wish of the Taiwanese and democracy fall apart. They didn't vote for independence, they aren't voting for independence and they're favouring unification fairly heavily.

As for don't see a point to unification, I think that my argument rests more on that I believe my pragmatic results are much more likely to occur than in a situation of a de jure independent Taiwan. On the other hand, I'd have to believe in a pipedream that an independent Taiwan doesn't lead to major conflict a few decades down the road.

Given the ethnicity, popular opinion and economic/political situation of Taiwan, the question is how to unify, not whether to unify. Even they face land claims from rivals such as Japan (such as the Taiwanese fishing boat sunk by a Japanese warship two years ago).

Yes, they absolutely did. Both before WW 2, and in the post-WW 2 Chinese Civil War.

Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken. Unrelated ME1 Fanfic

Indeed they did. And the vast tracts of land the soviets won from Japan at the end of WW 2 were given right to Mao.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

What do you mean "the question whether to unify" is not being debated? Whose position?

I treat all living things equally. That is to say, I eat all living things

Old topic, but as someone born from Taiwanese parents, I'm just gonna post some various opinion polls here; this analysis of 3 different opinion polls taken from about 2007-2009, lol Wikipedia, this analysis (http://www.jamestown.org/programs/chinabrief/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=38810&cHash=0363e0375a440746ccdeb5f8c3c5bad7) of a September 2011 poll done by the Executive Yuan’s Mainland Affairs Council, this November 2011 poll, and this August 2010 poll on cross-straits relations (obviously, things have probably changed a bit since then, but this is the most recent one I can find without being less lazy).

What you see here is that that while the status-quo center outnumber both the pro-independence and pro-unification factions, the pro-independence faction somewhat outnumbers the pro-unification faction, even if we break down the differing opinions of those who support the status-quo. Hell, this is apparent even in the pro-KMT sources I posted. However, while pro-unification sentiment is rare, pro-independence sentiment obviously isn't rampant either, considering over 50% of the population either wants to wait and see before making their decision, or simply maintain the status-quo indefinitely. Additionally, most Taiwanese seem to support the current government's policy towards China, presumably because they feel it strikes a decent middle ground. Honestly, while China might rattle its sabers from time to time, I think both it and the US are perfectly happy to let the status-quo continue for the foreseeable future.

Ultimately, while I think independence would be pretty cool, as long as Taiwan's future political status is decided on by its people, I could care less if it wants to rename itself the Independent Republic of Taiwan or if it wants to welcome its new PRC overlords. Hell, if the Chinese did invade Taiwan, I probably would not support sending US troops to rectify the situation, just out of pure pragmatism.

EDIT: For the Jamestown Foundation analysis, copy and paste everything within the parenthesis; the brackets inside the URL screw up the coding.

EDIT 2: Whoops, had to correct a typo that ended up misrepresenting my information.

edited 31st May '12 6:21:36 PM by umbrellasareawesome

28 Times Supreme Champion of the World Whosball Series

Intresting, though one was based off of "952 people surveyed"...seems a little low, but it largely matches the others so I wont complain.

I'd disagree on not sending US troops though. If they invaded Tiwan, who knows where they'd stop? I have to say, the prospect scares me(mostly because of Nukes), but we can't back off of one of our most important responsibilities. Especially since an attack on Tiwan would probably be precluded with pre-emptive strikes on our bases in the Pacific.

I'm baaaaaaack

Why should America care to begin with? Taiwan is close to who? America shouldn't flaunt its military any further if it wants to save its own economy. Speaking of China 'invading' Taiwan is just plain distortion of the 'Policy'.

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

Domino theory, I would say.

Now using Trivialis handle.

Taiwan is close to us, Cassie. We're allies, we're their military protectors.

No country should be able to annex another country just because it's larger. And if that means the projection of US military force, so be it. I'm fine with that.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

Just so we're clear, Taiwan was not a nation, never is, and never will be

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

Keep saying that after it does become a nation...

Now using Trivialis handle.

Considering they've been independent for decades and seem quite intent on not being a part of China, I'd say they are a separate nation, if only in a de facto sense.

I have no real point of reference for the actual sentiment of the Taiwanese on the ground, however, as opposed to their politicians.

"Can ye fathom the ocean, dark and deep, where the mighty waves and the grandeur sweep?"

Your right. The REPUBLIC OF CHINA is a nation, has been for a while, and will be. Suck it PRC!

edited 31st May '12 4:15:25 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack

Goddamnit, what have I done?

Did you check the statistics I provided? Even on a personal level, I get the sense from other Taiwanese is that nobody is particularly enthusiastic about rejoining China. Then again, I'm from a pan-green family, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

edited 31st May '12 4:22:59 PM by umbrellasareawesome

28 Times Supreme Champion of the World Whosball Series

My apologies, I didn't see that.

Also, what is "pan-green?"

"Can ye fathom the ocean, dark and deep, where the mighty waves and the grandeur sweep?"

Mentioned China on the internet. No matter what, this will happen when you bring up China.

I'm baaaaaaack

The 'Greens' are pro-independent factioners. To put it bluntly, those who got taken advantage of by Chen

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

Well, I don't particularly see why Taiwanese independence is bad, in and of itself. I can certainly understand not wanting to be under a corporatist oligarchy, though I have no clue if the Taiwanese government is any better. At the same time, I suppose it is theoretically possible for them to be better off overall under Chinese rule. Question is, is it worth forcing them into it against their will?

"Can ye fathom the ocean, dark and deep, where the mighty waves and the grandeur sweep?"

God, Cassie. Why is it so hard for you to see that if a majority of people want to be a separate nation, they should get to be a separate nation? They don't want to commit human rights violations, so there's literally no argument against independence.

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

How is it forcing when the current status quo has been maintained for so long? And you are absolutely right about one thing : Taiwan's Constitution isn't any more better (holier than China) overall. Parliament fights, anyone?

Don't eskew the current situation just so my stance can be made fallible to you. There's no MAJORITY in Taiwan who wants independence. They want the status quo of maintaining free-trade, free-money flow, and seperate jurisdictions, even if it means being a self-run province. Humans rights violation, how? The protest booms all over the world are turning out to be humans 'wrongs' instead. You can only protest so much (Egypt, Libya, Syria) until the authorities start driving the tanks and fire the guns. Has things improved after Sudan became split in half? No. They're going back to tearing each other apart until blood may flow to make the lands whole. This isn't something we'd like to see

But has it been the case between China and Taiwan? En, oh, NO.

edited 31st May '12 4:43:23 PM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...

I just think there's confusion going on in the thread.

For one thing, no, there's no human rights violations in particular for cross-strait between China and Taiwan. However, there have been such violations noted within mainland China that, if Taiwan carelessly reunites, it might be subjected to them.

edited 31st May '12 4:46:08 PM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.

I like the Parliament fights, actually. At least the Taiwanese are honest about their politics. The reason why most countries don't ever have them is that most countries (especially China) have dishonest politicians.

Cassie, you've advocated invasion and forceful restoration of Taiwan into the PRC. A majority of Taiwan doesn't want that. Therefore, it shouldn't happen. Do you have any objections to that?

If they want to continue with the status quo, that's fine. If China wants to take the free-trade agreement away, it has the right to do that. But I very much doubt that Taiwan will want to become part of the PRC then. They like the arrangement they have now, where they can rule themselves. They want to keep their self-rule. Do you have a problem with that?

Edit: Actually, Libya's revolution has been successful. Looks like Egypt's going to be successful too. Pessimism isn't quite the same as realism, you know.

edited 31st May '12 4:49:07 PM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.

Cassie, Tiwan dosn't want what your suggesting, they don't want to rejoin china, that's not the status quo. The status quo is de facto independence, with the possiblity of peacefully rejoining china IF they go democratic.

Also, whats your point with the Arab spring? That repressive governments will eventually attack their citizens if they protest? we knew that already...And besides, if anything it proves the citizens can rise up and take over. Look out china...

edited 31st May '12 4:51:08 PM by Joesolo

I'm baaaaaaack

I have a problem with that mostly because it breeds Greens and cultivates distrust towards China. Greens are those who want to aimlessly usher Taiwan into a non-befitting path of independence, just to spite China. It's no coincidence that every time Greens win, it's due to monetary incentive and false promises. And look at what the Blues do? They just don't act along the interests of the island's people as much, doing only a bit better than Greens.

Taiwan's current status quo is fine by me, but it is still a time bomb ticking. Unless you can prove to me that Taiwan can act in good faith about itself, I am very skeptical about it going solo. It has always been in a bond with China, and it benefits both sides

People have a tendency to not know what they're doing. I brought those protests up because they are fine examples of people who direct their courage at a completely wrong direction. What am I saying? I'm saying Taiwan's people are partially being reckless. We STILL don't know if America and Japan can be trusted. We STILL don't know if Marine Carriers would stop coming down altogether. I noticed that most people here take the stance of wanting America to be nosey about this matter, and frankly I'm tired of it

edited 31st May '12 4:56:42 PM by Cassie

What profit is it to a man, when he gains his money, but loses his internet? Anonymous 16:26 I believe...