Cuba and the Embargo

So, to quote my post from an earlier thread...

"Yes, because an admittedly traumatising event in the 60's is an excuse to hold a country in poverty for 50 fecking years... "

The traumatising event, by the way, is the Cuban missile crisis, and admittedly that was scary as all hell. And the thing holding a country in poverty for 50 years is the embargo on Cuba.

Now I'm far from saying thats the source of all of Cubas woes, but this ain't the cold war any more. Why not lift it?

edited 9th Aug '11 12:30:25 PM by GameChainsaw

I agree, if it were my decision I'd lift the embargo already.

It hasn't been lifted?!

Well, I think it should. It's not like Cuba is a major threat to anyone. I gotta admit, for what's its been through, its done really well.

I don't see why not. The Cuban Missile Crisis was instigated by the USSR. Said country no longer exists. As for Dirty Commies, we trade with China. 'nuff said.

I say lift it, it couldn't do their economy worse, and might help curb illegal immigration (since we'll actually start caring what boats come over from there).

Let's see, because it's a hostile country—that attempted to get nukes and point them at our capital—that's only 90 miles off the coast. For Europeans, that's a big distance, and the whole "nukes at our capital thing" isn't that big a deal because they always had that. For Americans, 90 miles is just down the road, and we never were close to the Old World and it's troubles. For a New World nation—and a former ally, to boot—to try and bring them onto our doorstep was unacceptable.

They would still attack us if they had any chance, too. If they'd play nice, we'd play nice too, but they won't, so why should we?

If they were going to attack us, wouldn't they already have? Being able to trade with us would provide less incentive to attack, not more.

@OP: because they're dirty commies and we'll keep sticking it to them as long as they are.

USAF, I highly doubt the Cubans are that aggressively minded.

They can't attack us because they'd lose, but they would if they could. They're obviously not friendly. They're just too weak to act on it. They're like that nerdy kid who has fantasies about beating the shit out of the football team captain...

If I thought American business could overrun their economy, I'd drop the embargo in a heartbeat, but they'd just tariff our business into non-competition, so there's no point there, either...

If someone is unfriendly towards you, but can't fight back, why not go for conciliatory gestures? What, is the US suddenly scared of a small island off its coast? Afraid the Cubans will get rich and powerful and beat you up for your lunch money?

I'm resorting to taunts, because it is a position that lacks backbone. Its worthy of the contempt I'm giving it.

Never underestimate your opponent. If I thought Canada had a decent reason to invade us and the inclination to do so, I would start lining tanks up on the border. I wouldn't make the first move, but a threat is a threat, no matter how small.

If I could break the Cubans into something not so... not cool... I'd drop the embargo. But they insist on being communist anti-Americans right off the shore of, oh, look, America. That's kind of a stupid position to take when the target of your hate is the most powerful military in the world, now...

Am I underestimating my opponent when I state, categorically, that Cuba could never launch an invasion of the US in the next 100 years?

I guess they might distract you at a crucial juncture... before getting stomped on promptly.

I repeat: 90. Miles.

To you, that's a long distance. To us, that's a rock, skip, and a jump... or cruise missile range...

But why would they do something so obviously likely to see them turned into a smouldering crater in the middle of the carribean? They're no more fanatical or suicidal than the USSR, and in a far weaker geographical position.

Iran they ain't.

edited 9th Aug '11 12:57:46 PM by GameChainsaw

Hey, they're not the only communist country to make stupid moves.

Oh, they wouldn't do it now, but come some curcial conflict between the US and some other power... (*cough*), they're in a perfect position to distract the hell out of us. Plus, you know, kill a bunch of Americans, which = not good.

That's 90 miles to me too (well, border-wise. I don't live in Florida). I still don't see what the problem is, as they don't have any means of attacking, and trade with the U.S. would do nothing but help their economy.

edited 9th Aug '11 1:00:10 PM by Ratix

Thats the only argument thats made sense to me so far, but I'll concede, they could possibly throw a brief spanner in the works.

Yes. Their economy. They know damn well they can't compete with us on even terms. If we drop the embargo, they'd tariff our stuff into the ground, and we'd do the same because that's what happens when people don't like each other. We'd gain nothing, and they'd be exactly where they were before they started. Why bother?

Because then it'll be their government who has to justify why they are being aggressive to their people. They can't just say "its the American embargo" as they will be the ones imposing crippling tariffs on themselves.

People will start to question the actions of such unwise leaders.

Exactly. Relations are so bad because of the Embargo. Why not take away the most obvious piece of ammunition the government has?

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. If they don't tariff our stuff—they're insane, for starters—but, they'll also get out-performed entirely, and their local economy will disappear. Conversely, if they do tariff, we tariff back, because it would supremely stupid not to. Why bother?

edited 9th Aug '11 1:07:39 PM by USAF713

Yup. The embargo is what is propping up the regime. If the American government dropped the embargo and publicly stated that they have no interest in interfering in Cuban domestic politics, the regime would end fairly quickly I think.

The problem is that there's enough of a constituency in a swing state that WANTS American interference in Cuban domestic politics that it'll never ever happen.

...and that, is a sound argument for keeping the embargo in place.

Its not exactly good for the Cubans on the street if American goods flood their markets and their economy evaporates. All that said, wouldn't the Cubans be able to introduce moderate tariffs and use enough protectionism to defend themselves but not too much to simply blockade themselves again?

edited 9th Aug '11 1:11:09 PM by GameChainsaw

I've been to Cuba.

Honestly, ending the embargo wouldn't really help. Property rights there are non-existent, you can't buy a car made after 195x, and tourism is the only strong industry.

That being said, crime is low.

edited 9th Aug '11 1:14:28 PM by Erock