Escalation of the Conflict in Kosovo - Another War in the Balkans?

Oh Miloše, I hope you Srbijanci will get rid of Tadić before he can do any further damage. If our Dodik was such a spineless pussy our Srpska would have been history by now.

edited 31st Jul '11 11:36:10 AM by AdeptusAlpharius

I ♥ the VRS

I'm not sure if Tadic's only a spineless pussy or a Wide-Eyed Idealist thinking that kindness will always be returned with kindness. Either way, he's quite a nuisance and his policies are godawful.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Come to think of it, spineless pussy would actually be a compliment for Tadić. I would like to see Serbia one day in the EU (if it survives until then) but the current relationship between Serbia and the West is a very abusive one. If humiliating yourself is a condition to maintain a relationship, they you should immediately break up. First they said you can't enter the EU as long as Mladić is on the run. You gave them Mladić but then suddenly they wanted Hadžić. You gave them Hadžić but now they want you apparently to give up Kosovo. That sounds awfully like blackmailing. As long as Tadić doesn't have the bollocks to say no, he is the wrong man for the job. Well fortunately, there will be elections next year. Šešelj may be a nutbar but even he as the Serbian head of state would actually be an improvement.

Dodik showed us a few months ago that you can negotiate with the West as long as you got them by the nuts.

edited 31st Jul '11 2:35:24 PM by AdeptusAlpharius

I ♥ the VRS

Funny how different people judge politicans based on where they are living. In Western Europe, Tadic is seen as someone who only does as much as he has to do, and in Serbia he is called a pussy. I fail to see how the EU treats Serbia dishonest. The conditions for accession talk were always clear and reasonable: Give us all war criminals wanted by Den Haag and give up your claim on Kosovo. These points were never negotiable and are essential for lasting peace on the Balkan. I want Serbia in the EU, but if they prefer to prolong their senseless struggle for Kosovo, so be it. There are other countries willing to join, Serbia need the EU more than we need them.

I would disagree on the last bit. The EU needs everyone in Europe, because otherwise, I wouldn't think it's doing its job. It is the European Union. That should include all of Europe. It's a hard goal, and perhaps rather unrealistic, but really now, it's still an admirable one. Besides, in the end, hopefully Kosovo and Serbia will be in the EU together, then they can look at each and realize how much dickwad shit was going on and how not worth it it was.

I am now known as Flyboy.

Most of the times when they were meeting with our politicians, they were saying that recognizing Kosovo is not necessary for joining EU. I don't know what were they saying in EU itself, but this is completely different. Even if we recognize Kosovo, I'm almost certain that they'll come up with more conditions. The problem there is our approach to the problem - Europe doesn't need a wrecked country, and we're trying to join EU as quickly as possible by literally copypasting European laws and many worse things, while leaving the economy in ruins. I'd really like for the entire Balkans to join the EU, but if doing so means destroying everything that we've achieved so far, then thanks very much, we can live without that +3% GDP increase.

edited 31st Jul '11 3:52:46 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Meh. Meet all the conditions, then they'll ask for Vojvodina, just cuz.

North Kosovo seems to be going the way of Transdnistria.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

I don't know what our politicians told your politicians, I only know what they are telling our newspapers. I remember there was an interview some time ago with the German chancellor Angela Merkel about the Kosovo. She made it clear that Germany wouldn't allow Serbia's ascension if they didn't give up their claim on Kosovo. This is one condition every German politician agree on. Just like Germany acknowledged the Oder-Neisse line in the 70s, Serbia will have to face reality one day.

Moreover, Croatia is now set to join the EU 2013. Other countries will follow. Does Serbia really want to be isolated due to some lost cause? It would be a shame, if they chose the past about their future.

edited 31st Jul '11 4:12:25 PM by Zarastro

It's not only about Kosovo, it's about much more than that.

EU's relation towards Serbia reminds me of the way a girl refuses to date a completely pathetic guy, but doesn't want to say that directly to him out of pity, and just in case a better opportunity doesn't show up.

It's simple: They. Don't. Want us.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

That and another girl might already like said pathetic guy and the ensuing catfight wouldn't be worth it.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

That's kinda debatable, but alright.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

It's debatable, but its something NATO actively fears.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

And the girl's got a case of multiple personality, some of "whom" urge her to get the guy so that the other girl won't get him.

Ah, Transnistria's not the same kind of situation, the EU is on Moldavia's side and the splinter is backed by Russia. You can get cynical now. But PR is the key, it appears. None in Moldavia was considered bad enough to strike a chord on the West's suppressed guilt.

"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"

@Zarastro: I don't know. Asking a country to give up its claims on a province that is rightfully theirs doesn't seem to me that reasonable but more as blackmailing. No one for example demanded Spain to give up its Basque province. If the EU really insists on blackmailing Serbia into submission then Belgrade should immediately abort the ascention talks right now, but as said, Tadić isn't man enough for that. And don't worry about Serbia being isolated. Bosnia for example is much further away from EU ascention.

EDIT: According to B92 the embargo is still in place, but the "borders" between Serbia and Kosovo have been opened for traffic.

edited 31st Jul '11 5:22:55 PM by AdeptusAlpharius

I ♥ the VRS

Well, that's good to hear.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Or, you could both join the EU and it wouldn't even matter anymore. Is it really worth the lives and misery to fight over it? It's generally considered eventual that all of Europe will join the EU. Why waste human life to delay the inevitable—especially since that inevitable is probably better for you in the long term anyhow—because of simple nationalistic nonsense? This applies to them, too; if the borders are going to disappear anyhow, neither of you have any decent reason to argue over it.

Of course, that's far too idealistic, I guess...

I am now known as Flyboy.

Serbia needs 5-10 years to join EU, and it's debatable if it will even happen. Kosovo is waaaay behind, and I wouldn't expect for it to join earler than 10-15 years after formally getting independence. So, no. By the way, Europe won't accept both countries until the whole issue is solved.

edited 31st Jul '11 5:39:36 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Well, of course it would be a long process, but I see nothing but bitterness and the Sunk Cost Fallacy stopping the Serbians and Kosovons... whatever the term would be... from going "hey dude, let's just shake hands and join the EU like grown-ups." After all, like I said, you gain nothing by fighting, and stand to lose a lot—human life, for one, but there are other things as well.

Once again, too idealistic, though.

edited 31st Jul '11 5:43:18 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

I'm afraid the situation is far more complex than that. The question about Kosovo isn't about nationalism but a clear violation of Serbia's national sovereignty. And I wouldn't dare to call the EU in its current state as something inevitable. If I would be Serbia I would wait and see how things turn out with Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. How many people in, for example the 50s or 60s, thought that the USSR would be gone by December 1991?

If the ascension talks fail, Serbia could still reach an economic agreement or some kind of "special relationship" like the EU has with Turkey. But Barroso said that recognizing Kosovo wouldn't be a pre-condition (which was the reason they gave Mladić in the first place) and Belgrade made it clear that they wouldn't accept otherwise, but who knows how many people may change their minds.

Indeed.

EDIT: You are right when you say that both parties should solve things like adults, but how much can you expect such behavior from a side that consists mostly of thugs, criminals and former KLA terrorists?

edited 31st Jul '11 5:53:46 PM by AdeptusAlpharius

I ♥ the VRS

I suppose I'm a hypocrite, since I'm American, and if even one state seceded I would be the first one in line to enlist and the first guy to fire off the gun to force them back. I have the lame historical excuse, of course, but still. Then again, just because I would do it doesn't make it right. You guys are going to end up wasting human life over lines on a map. Perhaps the EU is bullshit, but I cannot fathom why Kosovo and Serbia don't look at each other like, "wait a minute, we were making more money and better off together!" and then give them some kind of limited extra self-government or something, I don't know.

The Balkans are ridiculous. I have officially concluded that. Between names I cannot for the life of me spell (Serbia wins here because it's easy) and stupid fighting over random shit no one else has cared about in a hundred years, you guys are officially crazy. But that's ok, so are we, so it's not like you're all that much worse off.

Besides, there are people with worse—if not as high profile—problems than you guys. *cough*

Hey, at least you admit it. From the stereotype we have around here, most people would be thoroughly surprised to hear that.

edited 31st Jul '11 5:58:28 PM by USAF713

I am now known as Flyboy.

You Americans have been "wasting human life over lines on a map" when you were defending yourself against the Brits and expanded your border towards the West, so maybe we aren't much different.

The Balkans are a completely different universe from pretty much the rest of the world to say the least. The Kosovo crisis has many reasons with the fact that Serbs and Albanians being unfriendly towards each other for almost a millennia being one of them. The latest events showed us that Belgrade is ready for dialogue and it was the Kosovo "leadership" who made a dick move. If I would be Tadić, I wouldn't even talk to them. Not because I have something against the dialogue per se, but because I would refuse to talk to terrorists. Imagine Northern Ireland would have been taken over by the IRA and they want to split off from the UK. Their leadership talks about respecting law, peace, democracy and London causing trouble and so on. I have my doubts that the UK would feel like having a dialogue with them.

I already said my opinion, that Serbia should give up the Albanian parts and that the Serbian north is to be reintegrated into the motherland. As long as Serbia is remaining calm and doesn't cause any fuss, it is up to the Albanians whether they want to talk like grown-ups or not.

edited 31st Jul '11 6:23:08 PM by AdeptusAlpharius

I ♥ the VRS

Serbia lost their right to the Kosovo. They won't get it back. Maybe the North but not if they act as they do now. However the Kosovo shouldn't be up on Serbia's priority list. What would it change if they got it magically back? It wouldn't improve their economic situation.

Ah, hey now, we had slightly better reasons than that for the War of Independence. You got me on Manifest Destiny, though; there's a reason I deconstruct it in my current primary story: it's really easy to use as a scary dogmatic ideology for the US. Which is sad, because it's real.

I also acknowledged that I'm a hypocrite here. But, do as I say, not as I do, right?

No, I suppose the UK wouldn't have talked in that situation. Still, they're totally trolling you guys, man, and you're taking the bait! Except the bait here is going to cost a lot more than reputations in an internet debate.

I am now known as Flyboy.

BTW: You don't have to include me as I am a Serb from Bosnia. Though here in the Srpska we still support our fellow Serbs. :)

You mean the war, although Milošević is long gone and other countries keeping their provinces in which they are behaving worse then the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia back then?

How do they act? I do not see Serbia acting in any provocative way and the Serbs in Kosovo have good reasons to feel uncomfortable.

I ♥ the VRS

I saw that your location was Bosnia and Herzegovina... god, that's a mouthful; thank you spellcheck... but the way you talk about it I assumed you have some kind of relation to it. Then again, you live in the Balkans; it seems like everything is a huge deal with you guys. What do you mean it's not awesome/heinous, right? I mean, really, now, I have this vision of people in the Balkans walking down the street, and then they see someone who looks exactly like them, but with some imperceptible-to-outsiders difference, and then they run over and start a riot when they beat the guy up, and it snowballs into war... and, well, you get it.

It's a horrible stereotype, but come on, when you guys only get mentioned in the history books when you're having a civil war, can you blame us? Plus, that whole Old Shame (I hope) that is World War One.

Is it really that tense out there, or is it not nearly so bad as the media makes it out to be?

I am now known as Flyboy.