Escalation of the Conflict in Kosovo - Another War in the Balkans?

Listen Milos, if you would have asked my opinion in 2008, I would have said NO to independence. But things changed, Serbian hatred to Kosovo grew *

, there's a big risk for Albanians, bigger than for the Serbs in North (The Northerners are protesters, they can simply choose not to protest). I explained 3 possible scenarios. The 1 & 2 end in blood, the 3rd will just push the problems, not solve them, because as I read there are plenty of problems between Serbia and Kosovo, not just the border.

This simply means I don't support war. The war can be avoided just by a stupid, unfair, independence recognition.

edited 4th Oct '11 12:16:11 PM by drdeathray

So you'd rather have the North Kosovo serbians get screwed and oppressed by the Kosovar as some sick sort of peace offering to the KLA?

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

No, I'd rather watch news about genocides take over TV like in 1999,...oh wait, it won't be necessary, because I'll probably be there this time, unless they call me in Lybia first *

.

I'd rather see Serbia protect every last one of their nationals from the Kosovar, frankly.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

So YES to genocide?

The more I look at it, it seems that the Westerners find the situation pretty banal. I can understand that, since the whole conflict is very, very gray, there definitely are no ideal solutions, and it's all pretty meaningless. Still, us from around here take it very seriously - it is our people that are suffering and are at risk, after all. There is a strange, unexplainable, feeling among Balkan people, which may come off as very strange to others. We tend to feel a bond to others based solely on common nationality. Upon meeting a fellow national in an unknown, foreign city, or even an internet site, pretty much every Serb, Bosniak, Albanian, Croat or any other man from the Balkans tends to feel warm around the heart. It may be a cultural thing, maybe something else, I don't really know. Even I can't explain that. Regardless, we consider our fellow people to be like our kin, and take any suffering that they go through personally. No loyalty to a country, government, or whatever - it's purely on an ethnic level. All of these conflicts that are happening, it's not because of simple hatred towards other ethnicites. It's because we are protecting the interests of our fellow people and, unfortunately, those interests usually tend to clash with others' interests, leading to conflict and hatred. Think of it as a large-scale family feud.

Many of us know that simply recognizing Kosovo would be a pragmatic choice. But we can't cope with the fact that our fellow Serbs would be left to fend for themselves against a hostile environment, while any misdeeds against them are condoned, some even endorsed. This is the reason why the borders of Balkan countries should be left as homogenous as possible. There are no "age-old hatreds" here. Our mutual hatreds tend to be short, but fiery and emotional, with a tendency to refresh themselves every time a conflict shows up. For example, Serbs and Bulgarians used to hate each other at the beginning of the 20th century. After only a decade or two, the sentiment was largely forgotten. You must not give the people a reason for a conflict, let them cool off, and everybody will love each other in twenty years. A partition, leading to the most homogenous enviroment, would thus be, in the long-term, the best course of action.

edited 4th Oct '11 1:53:13 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

The "Warm Heart Culture" *

it might be the fact you had a similar history vs the Ottomans, and you have fight together against them. And I understand patriotism, it's not banal at all. But WOW...just WOW. When you turn against each other, you seem to forget all of this.

But i thought you disagreed the "Greater Albania◊" idea. Is being homogeneous all you want/need? (Another possible scenario if Northern Kosovo is given to Serbia).

edited 4th Oct '11 1:49:54 PM by drdeathray

I have to admit I find the ideals you describe, Milos, to be strange and, indeed, rather frightening. Maybe this highlights a prejudice of my own; I find this sort of emotional stake in a percieved "ethnic group" as the sort of thing which gets mental alarm bells going.

Despite this, I have to work with the environment I am presented, and I do my best to look myself into the shoes of the people I am, effectively, observing from a distance... and a filtered observation at that. And I can sympathise with the image of a small minority of people, cut off from the group they associate with and at the mercy of a much larger club whose only restraint is the frequently lapsing eye of the international community.

This... tends to lend me to sympathise with the Serbian view. If the idea of ethnic identities can lead to atrocities against other ethnic groups, then that applies as surely to the Albanians as it does to the Serbians... unfortunately, leaving the Albanians in Serbia leaves them at risk from Serbian reprisals!

However, Serbia doesn't seem to have been acting against its Albanian groups, while Kosovo has been frankly militant in its reaction to Serbia. The fact is that it is Kosovo that has been making the aggressive noises here; its this move into the north which is stirring all the crap up again. For that reason, I'd be inclined, here, to side with Serbia, on the approach that it at least seems less likely, at present, to engage in acts of prejudice against against its minority groups.

I regret that I do not know as much about the details of this situation as I would like... I just wish everyone would just... go home, accept the status quo, and stop bullying each other over such... banalities and artificial divisions!

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

That map is utter bullshit, since it was drawn by Albanian politicians in the mid-19th century based on flimsy ideas of "historical rights", with even flimsier proofs. Many of those areas don't have a single Albanian living there, nor did they ever have (unless you consider Albanians direct descendants of Illyrians, which is highly debatable). A much more realistic map of a "Greater Albania" would be the one of the territories Albania held during WW2◊, very similar to the map of majorly Albanian areas◊. Also, I was opposed to the idea of a Greater Albania solely on principle, but after some thinking, I decided that letting Albania have Kosovo, minus the North, would probably be the best idea.

To be honest, there are xenophobic sentiments among some parts of the Serbian population towards Albanians, but they are kept in check by the government, and there are no mainstream political parties calling for violence against the Albanian minority. There have been no inter-ethnic clashes in the Albanian-populated regions for already ten years. The people live in harmony, and Albanians are generally content, although some wish to join Kosovo solely on the basis of uniting with other parts of their nations. I have passed through that region several times, and have talked to the Albanians there without any problem, just like I would have talked with anyone else in Serbia. The level of minority rights in Serbia is the highest in the region and one of the highest in Europe, so they don't really have a reason to start problems.

edited 4th Oct '11 2:18:29 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Goes to Montenegro and Macedonia, and still is even bigger than Northern Kosovo...but this is a better reason why not, it means problems with these two countries. The other ones goes further with Greece... I skimmed The Other Wiki for the origins, there seems to be more argments for Thracian/Dacian theory, and this makes it even bigger the "Albanian Map" to Bulgaria...which means bigger problems.

Kosovo conflict may finish, but Balkan has still a lot to solve.

But are you seriously considering accepting greater Albania? A big Albanian state that goes through Montenegro, Macedonia and possibly Greece, and Bulgaria just for the North of Kosovo? Should I start calling it the Albanian Empire?

edited 4th Oct '11 3:37:34 PM by drdeathray

Macedonia is essentially a mistake of history since most of it should be under Bulgarian rule anyway....

The Macedonians are probably inclined to disagree... actually is the rest of the Balkans off topic or not? I'm not entirely sure...

edited 5th Oct '11 2:45:09 AM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Of course they would. Once anyone gets their own country, its very difficult to convince them it makes no sense, even if it is the case.

Anyway, yeah. Probably off topic.

Anything on the actual conflict or has that subsided again for now?

I don't support the idea of a Greater Albania, solely because achieveing it would require violence and international bullying. If they can somehow do it solely through peaceful dialogue with other countries, though that's almost impossible, I have no problem with that. As for Macedonia... it's a really tough, controversial case, and I wouldn't like the thread to go offtopic.

As for the conflict itself - the situation is relatively peaceful, and things are pretty much the same - the Serbs are still holding the barricades and KFOR holds the borders. Apart from that, a Serbian man was killed near Orahovac and his son wounded, for no reason except for being Serbian. Serbia is calling for an international committee on Kosovo, similar to the one held in Dayton after the Bosnian War.

edited 5th Oct '11 8:56:43 AM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

What are the odds of a South African-style Truth and Reconciliation Committee happening in the Balkans?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Very small. After all, it's very difficult to pull off as a joint effort of several states with a varying degree of hostility.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Okay, here are the latest news.

The Serbian government, not wanting to anger the West, has proceeded with the mellow approach. This didn't go really well for the Serbian side, and the Kosovar Albanians are gaining more and more diplomatic advantage each day. Currently, Serbs and Kosovars are negotiating on the status of the adminstrative line, and both are agreeing that they should be controlled by members of the Serbian and Kosovar police forces alongside EULEX. However, Serbia demands special status for the two posts separating Serbia and Northern Kosovo, and refuses the introduction of custom taxes on them, which the Albanians won't allow. The discussion is stalling because of that issue, but the representatives of the four Serbian municipalities have promised to remove the barricades if the Serbian conditions are met.

Seeing that the government in Serbia doesn't do a really good job of helping them, Kosovar Serbs have collectively asked for Russian citizenship in hope that it will strengthen their positions. Dmitry Rogozin, the Russian ambassador to NATO, has offered them an option of immigrating to Siberia in case the North is fully incorporated under Kosovar insitutions. Naturally, the Serbs aren't really too keen on trading their homes and mild temperate climate for life in a Siberian wasteland, but are considering that option.

In other news, Cristopher Dell, the US ambassador to Kosovo, has been recalled by the State Department under accusation of corruption and warmongering - basically, he is the man who encouraged the Kosovar government to attack the North and is responsible for the whole crisis. This earns the US one point of respect from me, but it's still not enough to fix everything that had been done.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

"Serbian hatred to Kosovo grew"

?

Surely it's the Serbian love for Kosovo that's part of the conflict.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

There have been a lot of things happening since I last posted - I was on hiatus, so I couldn't post. Here's a short brief:

During negotiations between Serbia and Kosovo on the status of the administrative line there has been another another attempt by KFOR to break through the barricades since, under pressure, the Serbian government has called the Kosovar Serbs to retreat from the barricades. They didn't comply, and KFOR forces used tear gas. Serbs opened fire, and a dozen KFOR soldiers were wounded. The EU laid blame on the Serbian government, and Austria, Germany and the Netherlands vetoed Serbia's candidate status, which was supposed to be given a few days ago, even though Serbian government has been particularly sycophantic lately, basically let the administrative line become a true border in everything but name and adviced Kosovar Serbs to retreat from the barricades (KFOR eventually removed them, only for Serbs to rebuild some of them a day after).

Serbia's EU candidate status should be reconsidered in March, under "certain circumstances". Serbian president Tadić said that the EU demands from Serbia to fully recognize Kosovo if they want their candidate status. Again, the government hasn't made any clear statements on the issue, but there are obvious turmoils within the government - officials are laying the blame on one another, and Vice Premier Božidar Đelić has resigned from his position. There is also a big polarization in the general public - there are more eurosceptics than ever, while on the other hand, the rapidly growing "Overturn" movement is demanding Kosovo's recognition for the sake of gaining the candidate status. Serbs in Kosovo have stopped relying on the Serbian government a long ago, have nothing to lose, and there's a considerable possibility of an armed uprising. Nice job, EU, nice job.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

What's to stop the Serbian government from recognising Kosovo but simply doing it in such a way that the northern bit is still disputed? Something like "The Serbian government hereby recognises the status of the nation of Kosovo as completely independent of that of Serbia. This recognition extends to all of Kosovo with exception for the disputed northern territory the sovereignty of which is still under question".

I mean that would mean they had recognised Kosovo but still had recognised it as everything but the disputed northern territory. Several countries recognise each other but insist that part of the others land is actually theirs. North and South Sudan recognise each other but still claim different borders, Egypt and Sudan both recognise but claim certain areas, the UK and Spain, the UK and Argantina, the UK and [insert name of countries near British Overseas Territory here].

This is a big area of interest to me since I am doing a 6000 word mini dictation on interventions and Kosovo is one of the ones I'm going to look at.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Because of the diplomatic rule to always push for more than is realistic. Pretty much everybody in Serbia knows that there's an extremely small chance of Serbia returning anything larger than the north part. Serbia's pushing for the return of Kosovo under a huge degree of autonomy, and Kosovo is pushing for full independence and international recognition. A split is "the middle ground", which is what Serbs hope for. Also, recognizing Kosovo as an independent would damage Serbia's claims on any part of the territory.

edited 14th Dec '11 1:47:24 PM by MilosStefanovic

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Though dialed down some, I still have one hell of a time feeling any sympathy for the Serbians on this.

Greatest example why.

And again, alot of Serbians I have heard of have refused to acknowledge the fact that there were some quite legitimate reasons for being pissed before the late 90's.

I would be more worried about Bosnia exploding again. And I side with the Bosnians.

The Siege of Sarajevo was indeed horrible, as well as Srebrenica. Still, there is a fact that a lot of anti-Serbian lobbyists refuse to acknowledge - the war in Bosnia wasn't waged by the Yugoslav People's Army (that is, Serbs from Serbia), which left Bosnia a month after the declaration of independence, but by the Army of Republika Srpska (an extremely disorganized militia of Bosnian Serbs) and several paramilitary units, mercenary regiments and volunteer corps from Serbia (which were full of all kinds of lowlife), and Milošević halted the support of Republika Srpska in 1994. So, it's wrong to blame the Serbian atrocities of the war in Bosnia on the state of Serbia. And even though Serbian atrocities were unarguably the worst during the Bosnian war (becuase, duh, they were the largest ethnic community and had the greatest means to commit them), Bosniaks and Croats were far from angelic. There were no "good" or "bad" guys in that war, or rather, everyone was bad.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

The EU's refusal to grant Serbia candidate status is not a surprise. Austria, the Netherlands and Germany made it pretty clear, that if Serbia doesn't recognize the Kosovo, they won't permit Serbia to join. Really, the Serbian government have nobody to blame but themselves.

The Western Powers recognize Kosobo but not South Osethia, Abkhazia, or Palestine. Hell! Not even Taiwan!

While the same is true of Russia which doesnt recognize Kosobo, or Taiwan either.

Hypocresy I say. Hypocresy on both sides.

edited 18th Dec '11 9:06:53 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.