Escalation of the Conflict in Kosovo - Another War in the Balkans?

That doesn't mean the minority, which is homogenously in the north, should not have the same choice.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

That is why I suggested that those groups be part of Serbia, and the rest go to Kosovo, but I was told, and given good reasons why, that couldn't be done.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

@Chainsaw: That's what we are afraid of - Kosovo's buddy-buddy relation with the US gives it a powerful diplomatic lever which lets it do some things that would have otherwise been condemned - kinda like Israel (but let's not go off-topic here). And yes, Serbia knows that losing all of Kosovo is a distinct possibility, and has plans readied for that case. Sure, the odds are on their side, but we can't just give it up yet.

@drdeathray: I know that. But the Serbian minority in Kosovo has equal rights to stay inside Serbia as Albanians do to secede. Sure, there's the matter of Kosovo's administrative borders, but the Serbian institutions still have a lot more power in the North than the Kosovar ones do. From a practical perspective, keeping the North under Serbia would, bureaucratically and politically, be a lot more stellar than integrating it within Kosovar institutions.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

1) Serbia has already lost Kosovo. Actually, Serbia lost control over Kosovo in 1999, but in 2008 lost it as a territory.

2) Kosovo did not secede (Withdraw formally from membership in a federal union, an alliance, or a political or religious organization), but declared independence (freedom from control or influence of another or others).

3) I haven't read anywhere that Kosovo is forbidding Serbs to stay inside Serbia.

If there are people of Serbian ethnicity living within the region splitting off from Serbia, it is reasonable to say that they will be leaving Serbia when the region becomes part of Kosovo.

Bah, the concept of ethnicity is madness anyway, but for some reason people in the region (and all over much of the world) still seem to think its worth splitting up over and even killing for... madness.

edited 2nd Oct '11 2:32:22 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Serbs in the north want to remain part of Serbia without having to move from their homes. The logic is that, if Kosovo can secede from Serbia (and they did, let's not mince words), the Serbs of North Kosovo have just as much of a right to secede from Kosovo and remain part of Serbia.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

When were Kosovo and Serbia on an alliance?

edited 2nd Oct '11 2:51:54 PM by drdeathray

Kosovo has been an "Autonomous Region" for some time now; which I imagine has the same implications as the Scottish, Welsh and Irish "devolved assemblies" (and parliament) control over local issues but with central government control over international concerns.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

alliance An agreement or friendship between two or more parties, made in order to advance common goals and to secure common interests. (So equal opportunities)

autonomy Having self-government, at least to a significant degree. (Not equal opportunities)

edited 2nd Oct '11 3:30:22 PM by drdeathray

I never wrote the word alliance, so what are you even on about?

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

I did, 7 comments before this. It's in bold, to differentiate secession and independence. And then 2 comments before this I explained the difference between alliance and autonomy. You insisted they seceded, in this quote

.

edited 2nd Oct '11 4:57:25 PM by drdeathray

According to Wiktionary, "secede" means:

So according to Wiktionary, we're misusing the word; but in the "Usage notes," it says:

So Wiktionary does acknowledge that the word "secede" is in fact used to refer to the act of splitting from an existing state (or other political entity) to form a new one.

If you ask me (which, admittedly, no one did,) the way we're using the word "secede" is accurate enough, even if that particular meaning of the word hasn't been established in this (and presumably most other) dictionaries. Since this is a way it's very commonly used, the meaning of the word has effectively expanded, and dictionaries will undoubtedly follow suit.

edited 2nd Oct '11 4:56:28 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Thank you.

Now if you're done with semantics, I ask again: Why does North Kosovo not have the same rights as Kosovo? If Kosovo can secede from Serbia why can't the North split from the remainder?

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

The region that declared independence is formally Аутономна Покрајина Косово и Метохија. Northern Kosovo is part of that region. Northern Kosovo doesn't have autonomy. It's not the same situation. Kosovo did have autonomy. If it was that easy, all ethnicities of the world would want independence. But first you need self goverment, second will of people, third wide support. Kosovo is 3/3, while Northern Kosovo 1/3.

edited 2nd Oct '11 5:32:34 PM by drdeathray

It has self-government in the form of the provincial institutions of Kosovo, which are still in active use in the north. Since they don't want actual independance (from Serbia), this would be enough.

Once again, you are arguing semantics. You're saying because Kosovo covered a particular territory when it seceded, the North must go with everyone else. This was an ethnic secession, so the minority of the province, which is part of the majority from the state being seceded from, shouldn't have to go along with this independence just because they happen to live on one side of the administrative line.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

Provincial institutions are apparently not recognized by as a from of self government. They didn't just say "Hey, we're Albanians, lets secede", they decided to secede from a number a reasons. Kosovo War, was the climax of these reasons, they had problems that apparently were hundreds of years long as I read here. This is the side of the story US and EU support.

No, I'm not saying, you need to have hundreds of years of problems to secede. Kosovo War, to put it bluntly, was blamed on Slobodan Milošević, President of Serbia, and by default Serbia. That's how Serbia lost Kosovo in 1999. I read that Kosovo tried to declare independence before '99, but it was refuted, this war caused EU and US to change their minds.

The incidents of Northern Kosovo are not blamed on Kosovo, but of the Serbians(again), The Serbian minority are terroists to Kosovo and freedom fighters to Serbia. *

What I'm saying is the decision of whether support Serbian minority or not, depends on how you see their actions. *

edited 3rd Oct '11 12:11:01 PM by drdeathray

So its a pathetic war of opinions rather than any relevance to reality. What a high quality debate the world is engaging in.

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Both Serbians and Kosovo Albanians are suffering from this opinionated decisions...

edited 3rd Oct '11 12:23:19 PM by drdeathray

Kosovo should not be acknowledged as independant unless the same can be given to North Kosovo because yes the Pristina government is trying to impose itself on a people who are perfectly fine being with Belgrade, as these latest clashes show. Pristina refuses to even negotiate the point. If we're stating that ideals like self determination actually matter, then it matters for both sides. If this is, as I suspect, merely an excercise in cynicism to screw over Serbia, then I have no problem siding with Belgrade on this issue.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

/world politics.

I am now known as Flyboy.

Ok lets go with yours...

Scenario 1: Kosovo chooses not to give North to Serbia, and so it's not acknowledged independent...What will stop Serbians from attacking Kosovo Albanians now that is even worse than the situation in 1999? Serbian minorities are actually willing to fight NATO, or KFOR and have managed to put to the hospital many of them, what will stop them attacking for revenge? I don't believe that all of them will just be fine with getting what they wanted.

Scenario 2: Kosovo chooses to give North to Serbia, and is acknowledged independent by Serbia...what it will stop other◊ Serbian minorities to riot and wanting to join Serbia? All Serbians unite...let every city that has a Serbian minority rejoin Serbia *

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Scenario 3: Kosovo chooses to give North to Serbia, Serbia still does not acknowledges independence. Most plausible scenario.

This is an article in English, but written by a country (Greece) that doesn't support Kosovo. The title says "Kosovo Serbs boycott negotiations", not Pristina.

Thats because Kosovo won't let them go back. Pristina wants to negotiate making the north an autonomous province within Kosovo, not simply let the bits of the province go back to Serbia.

And I have zero problem with option two. Why not unite the Serbs? Got something against Serbs?

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

Still, it stays the point that Serbia is the one who doesn't want negotiations, not Kosovo.

Scenario 2 will end like Scenario 1. I thought that was an understatement.

edited 3rd Oct '11 5:30:24 PM by drdeathray

If the Serbs are still the majority in all the cities of Kosovo (and I'm not sure if that data is still true after 2008), then all the more reason why Kosovo SHOULD NOT secede. If the demographics have changed however, as I suspect they probably have, then the Mitrovica region of Kosovo should be allowed to remain with Serbia.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...

The dots on that map don't represent cities, but the percentage of the minority population in those municipalities. There are no Serbs in Kosovar cities anymore - apart from the north and the enclaves, you can find Serbs only in remote, backwater areas.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.