The Oslo bombing and Utoya mass-shooting thread (try #2)

Continuation of the old thread that got locked, with permission from Fighteer.

First names of victims published.

Some thoughts by experts who have read his manuscript.

More information about the Summer Camp at which the shooting happened.

We would be very happy if this one did not devolve into a Flame War involving creepy and disturbing rantings about why it is good to shoot 70+ teenagers and/or graphical fantasies about violently torturing the perpetrator to death. Thanks.

"That said, as I've mentioned before, apart from the helmet, he's not exactly bad looking, if a bit...blood-drenched." - juancarlos

Just to be perfectly clear: If it turns into an argument, or into torture fantasies; thumpings and bans (either permanent or temporary) will ensue, and it will be locked down.

edited 26th Jul '11 11:51:23 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

So I saw a remark by somebody that it was a liberal lie of some kind that this was an anti-Islamic act.

I'm pretty sure it's taken straight from his own writing though.

Since I didn't weigh in on this before, here are some of my scattered thoughts on the subject:

• Dude's a terrorist. That shouldn't even be arguable.
• If you believe your movement necessitates the murder of adolescents, that movement is contemptible.
• Given Glenn Beck's comments concerning these acts of terrorism, I think he and anyone who shares his viewpoint are wastes of sperm and eggs.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt." - Some guy with a snazzy hat.

I found a video and it was very moving but cant link it here.

edited 26th Jul '11 11:59:58 AM by whaleofyournightmare

Dutch Lesbian

@blueharp: People are dumb, what can I say? More to the point, people are endlessly willing to take any event and interpret it to fit their political agenda.

At this point, the deed has been done. There's no way to bring those kids back, or the others who died. This one man will go to prison for life, or be executed (unlikely), and while that may bring a measure of certainty that he won't kill anyone else, it does nothing to ameliorate the harm he already accomplished. And then there's the question of whatever delusion, misguided political ideals, insanity, etc. caused this man to go on the rampage in the first place. Tragedy all around.

edited 26th Jul '11 12:01:22 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

It's interesting/infuriating to see how the far right is dodging blame online. On one Finnish forum, before any facts were in, they were blaming Muslims and demanding answers from Finnish female liberal politicians. And now they have the gall to call out people criticizing them for "dancing on graves". Guys, hypocracy accusations only work in this case if they're directed at islamic extremists.

Facsinating thing I learned in the wake of the events: the theory behind ABB's views, and the undercurrent in the European New Right is the Eurabia conspiracy theory. I first thought Eurabia was just a bad statistical projection that got passed around as fact, but it turned out that people believe that 1. it's really going to happen and 2. it's actually a conspiracy by European elites to cement a co-operation between Europe and the Muslim world against the US and Russia. To what end, I don't know.

Last, a political cartoon on the topic that I have trouble decoding◊. Considering ABB was pro-Israel, and also the conflicts in India going back equally as far as Israel, the message of this confuses me.

[ed.] Also, to bring up another point. The conflict betweent he left and right has been bubbling under for a while in Europe. There have been arsons, street fights at major Right Wing protests (Salem and Dresden) and blows back and forth in verious situations. Also, the Danish national party organizes,, and will continue despite recent events, shooting practises for its members for "home security" and "cultural defence".

edited 26th Jul '11 12:52:34 PM by JethroQWalrustitty

My views on this are to me stating the obvious. Namely, that just because someone has a belief, they do not have the right to force this on others by murdering them. I think someone who thinks in this way should clearly be locked up for life. I don't usually agree with the death penalty, but this is a case where I could not possibly disagree with it if it was announced he was to be killed.
Also; I don't get terrorism. Not just, don't agree with it, I honestly don't get it. How is slaughtering innocent people supposed to get the public on your side? Are people really so wrong in the head that they think stuff like this could genuinly help their cause?

I was saddened when I heard details about why it took so long for police to be dispatched to the island.

While I understand that the country is not accustomed to dealing with things like this, I wonder how many of those lives could have been saved with proper emergency preparedness.

Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!

I wish it were just them being dumb. It's a much more pernicious value being expressed there, one of evading blame and accountability, and hoping that others are dumb enough to believe their excuses.

Emergency response is difficult, being prepared to respond to everything is expensive and probably unobtainable.

edited 26th Jul '11 12:57:51 PM by blueharp

Since when did Islamic terrorists commit a terroristic attack in central Japan? Sure, they had a bunch of sects that did some in Tokyo, but those were not Muslims and back in the 1990s.

...wait, don't tell me this is one of those people who thinks the tsunami was a terrorist attack.

edited 26th Jul '11 12:57:35 PM by TheStupidExclamationMark

"That said, as I've mentioned before, apart from the helmet, he's not exactly bad looking, if a bit...blood-drenched." - juancarlos

I note that Glenn Beck, who said that a political camp for teenagers sounds like the Hitler Youth, also helps to fund a group called Constitutional Champions which runs, yeah you know the rest.

The sad thing is that terrorism often works. The real underlying agenda is to unify people who feel threatened by a common enemy. By attacking that so-called "enemy" (usually a government whose policies one disagrees with) an open violent conflict between the supporters of that government and people who feel victimized by it can become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Some might argue that much Middle-Eastern terrorism has had exactly that effect. It's even a principle of guerrila warfare in Mao's Little Red Book, IIRC. That said, I dont think that will happen here, any more than it happened in the wake of the Murrah Building bombing.

This is having an effect in America A group in Florida has "compiled from open source information" a list of 5th coloumn Terrorists because of the incident. It seems some folks are nearly desperate to tie this to muslim extremists.

There was an article I saw earlier today that pointed out how hard they are looking to find any conspirators in Norway but I have lost the link. I can't seem to locate it as my googlefu is weakened at the moment.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:17:46 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?

Don't know if somebody posted this in the last thread, but there are talks of charging ABB with "crimes against humanity." The reason for this is that, for some reason, if he is convicted of that he can be jailed for 30 years.

Also, the court hearing on Monday was delayed because Brevik wanted to wear his uniform while there. The police refused.

And is it just me, or are the medals he gave himself based on real life medals? The fastening on one of them looks like it came from a Purple Heart, just with the heart portion removed and replaced with a templar cross.

Edit: That Wired article reminds me of Mc Carthy. He had a list of "subversive individuals" that were a danger to the state, but wouldn't let anyone see it for poorly defined reasons.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:23:22 PM by Sidewinder

Dude doesn't care about going to prison, he wants a chance to show off his extremist viewpoints in public. I hope the judge has the presence of mind to close the courtroom. Forcing him to dress in prison garb rather than his "uniform" or whatever would also help.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Medals? He probably bought them from a supplier who used pre-existing patterns and molds.

I thought Four Lions was stupidly epic*

, but this is Beyond the Impossible. One guy. One pissed-off guy who's heard the same harmful bullshit since childhood, is enough.

I expect some serious backlash against the Far Right, who are actually responsible for a very large number of attempted and successful operations. I'd really like Muslims to get some freaking slack.

@BBC picture: now that is a Trollface. He looks so smug.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:27:40 PM by GoodGuyGreg

The Quiet One. No OTT. No unfunny. No squick. No crusades. Harmless and clean.

Since he's admitted to it, I don't really see why he's even in court. Whatever his reasoning, he murdered innocent people, therefore he should go to jail for the rest of his life. Nothing he says is going to make any difference to that, and it's not like he has a right to anything anymore, so there's really no reason to let him speak. They should just throw him straight into prison.

Nope, he's got a right to a trial, and if he's not admitting guilt, but asserting something else, it's not possible to just sentence him.

Then there's the issue of his sanity, which at least has to be looked into.

Why doesn't he get the Bin Laden treatment? I for one wanted to hear what the Laden had to say (mostly because I am a bit of a Truther and his declarations would have been great ways to test the hypotheses and perhaps falsify them or discriminate between them... alas...). In this guy's case, I don't see what's to explain or what doubts there are. I say send him to a jail... in China.

The Quiet One. No OTT. No unfunny. No squick. No crusades. Harmless and clean.

Well, he shouldn't have the right to a trial. Violating someone else's human rights should automatically strip a person of their own. He has admitted guilt, whether he phrases it that way or not. And he's quite clearly insane; no right minded person could ever think this was an acceptable thing to do.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:32:24 PM by ArlaGrey

I think you'll find that approach has more potential for abuse than it is worth.

Norwegian police apparently managed to arrest him safely. No idea what happened in the actual arrest, but they managed it without killing him.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:36:13 PM by blueharp

No.

The Quiet One. No OTT. No unfunny. No squick. No crusades. Harmless and clean.

OK, bit of a generalisation, as I don't advocate the death penalty. But if he's admitted to murdering those people, I don't see why he should be allowed to stand in a courtroom and attempt to justify whatever beliefs led him to do it. He did it, he should go to jail, and he certainly doesn't have the right to a pointless trial.

edited 26th Jul '11 1:40:08 PM by ArlaGrey