On what basis are feminine guys assumed to be gay?

Inspired by this tangent in the other thread, I figured it may be worthwhile discussing the "feminine ergo gay" component of that in this topic.

What is the reasoning (if any) for the stereotype that feminine guys are gay? The post I linked to above has one theory, but as I already stated it's presumptuous on several levels; assuming those who are straight to do anything to impress women (I'm straight but I'm a bit more honest than to resort to that) and assuming that every straight guy expects femininity in guys to be repulsive to women.

The other is the stereotype that gay guys are feminine, but even if you were to assume that, (which has some counterstereotypes already) getting "feminine guys are gay" from that is just a classic case of the converse error. Given that avoiding this error is a key component of high school math, one has to wonder how well people who made this mistake did in school.

Are we talking about 'feminine' in the sense that a guy is a certain way regardless of whether it's viewed as masculine or feminine, and then society labels them feminine... or a person sees what is labelled as feminine and therefore adopts those things for himself because he wants to see himself as feminine?

For example, raise your hand, anyone who likes to watch My Little Pony. That's an example of the first type and has no correlation with sexuality.

For a contrasting example, take a crossdresser. That's someone who adopts these things because of how society feels about them in the first place, not because he has a biological affinity for fishnet and high heels. And I don't think it's wrong to correlate the latter group, people who have gender identity issues, with people who have sexual identity issues.

The real trouble comes when people confuse the My Little Pony fans with the crossdressers and vice versa.

Furthermore, I think Guantanamo must be destroyed.

Even then, what about someone who has gender identity issues for reasons other than sexual orientation, like some guy who was picked on in school for being girly or something like that?

Being girly in what way? And why would that result in later issues?

edited 19th Jul '11 10:30:19 AM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

Gay [people/relationships] challenge conservative gender roles, feminine guys challenge conservative gender roles, people conflate the two incorrectly.

It doesn't really make much sense when you think about it, but unconscious prejudices don't often get much serious thought given to them by their owners.

"Gay [people/relationships] challenge conservative gender roles, feminine guys challenge conservative gender roles, people conflate the two incorrectly." - Forone And Won

Tomboyish girls challenge conservative gender roles just by being tomboys, but that didn't stop a rather tomboyish girl from picking on me pretty badly in elementary and middle school, so there's probably more to it than that. (Though granted, that particular girl didn't say that I was gay; actually, generally speaking, the tendency of people who picked on me for being girly to NOT conflate it with being gay is one of their few redeeming characteristics.)

edited 19th Jul '11 10:58:29 AM by neoYTPism

Not in the same way. Speaking as a tomboy, [most] girls behaving in a "masculine" way do so not because they feel particularly manly, but because masculinity is seen as the default, and is stereotypically characterized by more positive traits than femininity has ascribed to it.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

She was "tomboyish" to a much further extent than most... or at least had a reputation for it. It wasn't the "default" in her case.

I would blame censorship. A lot of earlier portrayals of gays steered clear of being explicit about their sexuality and so merely implied that they were gay and thus people looked for common ways to imply it and the Camp Gay trope was created for the purpose of Getting Crap Past the Radar.

Decades later and the trope is so powerful that there are gays deliberately acting camp as a way of expressing that they aren't ashamed of media portrayals and there are people who believe there is a positive correlation.

As the page link (woohoo!) I would have to say that for some reason, my dislike of sports, fighting, 'boy' things, was seen as weird in primary school.

However, as I got into secondary school - where kids are that bit more influenced by media - effeminate = gay. For the first couple of years, I was weird for not liking sports, or dirt.

Of course, when I got in the later years, my perception was changed. Am I gay? Because, like most of my peers, were influenced by media, that effeminate = gay.

But no, I was straight. I was sure of it. But what was I? Of course, I found out that I was metrosexual.

But of course, people still assumed that I was gay. Because liking pink, ponies, romcoms, magical girl stuff, fashion, clothes shopping, was girl things, ergo, they were gay.

No man would claim to like that openly without being gay.

Love Actually was an awesome movie.

If students have to avoid the error to do well in math, then they'll avoid it in the context of doing math. There's no reason to expect them to internalize and understand the concept to such an extent that they'll actually see it as a mistake in other contexts, much less care about avoiding it.

This, just this.

And on topic, I'll second that you'd have to define feminine. I mean if it's being used to mean "not stereotypically manly", then I'd say that ultimately, that isn't assumed to be gay

If you mean Camp Straight- well, they are assumed since they have the same mannerisms stereotypically associated with gay people.

edited 19th Jul '11 11:25:40 AM by Jordan

Hodor

After a few glasses of Rosé all women are attractive, with a possible exception of most female politicians.

Edit: It's also not Converse Error since that requires "If Gay then Effeminate" to be true in the first place.

edited 19th Jul '11 11:26:01 AM by Michael

I heard that the Camp Gay stereotype originated with Oscar Wilde.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

I'm just guessing here, but maybe it's because of the correlation between high testosterone levels and strong sex drives. Most manly men are very attracted to women, as opposed to more effeminate men, who tend to be less attracted to women. Maybe people are seeing a pattern where girliness in men means being less attracted to women, and because gay men aren't attracted to women at all, seeing a connection and deciding that the more effeminate a man is, the likelier he is to be gay?

I wonder how and whether this applies in other countries? It certainly doesn't fit what I know of Japan . . .

edited 19th Jul '11 6:30:16 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

I'm not sure how true this is... but I remember reading somewhere that in the past 'feminine' men were assumed to be straight men who chased girls a lot. Sort of like... women were assumed to like men who dressed and groomed meticulously.

Be not afraid...

S'truth. Fops were assumed to be hypersexual, using their love of fashion as an icebreaker with women, then charming and bedding them.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

@Topic- My guess is that it's simply "Hm, this guy gives off a vibe I usually feel given off by women, therefore, he must be like a woman in other ways, such as rather enjoying some penis every once in awhile". The reason the inverse isn't true except in particularly masculine women is that womanhood/femininity is seen as a deviation from manhood/masculinity, which is treated like the default*

. So long as a woman doesn't go way out of her way to seem masculine like shaving her head or dressing particularly manly or joining a softball team, she'll be assumed to be straight.

They lost me. Forgot me. Made you from parts of me. If you're the One, my father's son, what am I supposed to be?

Thread Hop: the trope you're looking for is Camp Gay.

Fight smart, not fair.

I myself am bigender (what is bigender? Well, bigender is to transsexual as bisexual is to homosexual), but I generally associate femininity with more positive things than masculinity.

At first I didn't realize I needed all this stuff...

Oh hey another bigendered person. Hello other bigendered person! We are a small minority!

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

^, ^^, This thread never did get many posts. (I created it with agender individuals in mind, but I suppose bigender fits too. I'm not sure I understand the concept of bigender, but it sounds interesting.)

On-topic, I just remembered a book I read a while ago called Dude, You're a Fag*

. One of the things it observed about American high school males is that usage of the insult "fag" is their primary method of curbing unacceptable behavior. (The precise nature of unacceptable behavior varies—for instance, white boys are called fags for knowing how to dance, whereas black boys are expected to know how to dance.)

edited 22nd Jul '11 1:44:38 AM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

Speaking as a black man who can't dance for shit, it depends on the dance. And the music.