Troper Fencing Academy

Yeah, you pretty much have to move your sword back to strike from chudan. Usually you move into jodan or something like that as a transition.

Mind, that's when leading the attack; an important thing to remember is that defense is important, and a katana can cut an unarmored opponent even without any swinging force behind it. It's like a razor blade. Get it up against someone and draw the blade across their flesh, and you will cause an injury; it's feasible to knock the incoming sword out of the way, for instance, and do a kind of half-swing for your strike. What's important is you get that slicing motion.

-nods-

So, follow-up question:

Musashi tell us that the weakness of chudan is the necessity of pulling back for a strike, and when facing an adversary in this stance, to strike when they pull back. I would take this to mean that you do not pull back for a strike yourself, but step or lunge in for a draw-cut?

Let me just put it this way:

There's a reason we point the tip of the sword at the other guy's throat in that stance.

... or that, yeah.

-should stop forgetting that katanas can thrust-

Quite important to remember yes; honestly, though, we don't do it often. Not in my style, at least. It's more of a quick attack to take advantage of an opening and not really utilized outside of that.

My simple longswordy mind just can't comprehend the idea of not using such an optimised cutting edge all the time. <_<

Quiet, you.

-nods sagely-

Of course, Moony-sama. :o

I realize there's a very good chance of you being facetious about the quality of Japanese blades, but on the off-chance that this is not the case, I feel the need to remind you: while they cut well, they're also brittle as shit. Blocking with the flat is mandatory, because otherwise you're likely to damage your edge, if not get your sword cut in two outright.

I'm aware of their limitations, but I also think they're some of the best swords out there for their particular purpose. I'd choose a longsword over a katana any day, but I'd choose a katana over, say, a European arming sword. Given some training to deal with those limitations. In my style, you don't exactly worry much about parrying edge-on-edge — it's necessary, in fact.

But I'll say this:

With this kind of blade I can't use some parts of my own style because it's just too dangerous to myself. Dx

Also, any sword optimised for two-handed use is golden in my eyes.

...too dangerous to yourself...

Alright, hit me. How is that possible?

ITT: Alex and Moon wank about swords to each other.

edited 18th Jul '11 1:17:26 AM by Blackmoon

Half-swording and it's logical extension — using both hands on the blade and using the pommel/crossguard as a mace/hammer combo weapon.

Look, the European longsword is just a bastard weapon, okay? It's a little bit sword, a little bit staff, a little bit spear and a little bit warhammer. The blade is, by design, less sharp than other kinds of swords because you can generate more power with two hands anyway and it allows you to grip the blade risk-free as long as you don't slide your hands. I can say, without bias, that there is no close combat weapon out there as versatile as the European longsword. I am willing to be proven otherwise, because criticism of one's own style is simply healthy, but it is incredibly ridiculous shit, probably thought up by some five-year-old or something. <_<;

With a katana, I'm just gonna cut myself doing all that stuff. I have momentous respect for any weapon that can destroy me while I use it.

^^ Ya talk like that's a new development. What didja think this thread was from the start?

edited 18th Jul '11 1:25:54 AM by FurikoMaru

It also bears mentioning that defensive work in kenjutsu involves a combination of footwork and bladework, with the ratios between the two different from ryuu to ryuu. There's a concept called uke-nagashi "to block and let flow away" - if your enemy attacks with shomen-uchi (direct downward cut to the crown of the head) or a similar downward cut, you lift your sword pointing down at an angle to stop the oncoming blade from hitting you, sliding across your sword like water off a roof. At the same time, you step away at an angle. This can lead into nami-gaeshi transitioning into jodan using the momentum transferred to your sword from your enemy's cut, from which you can counter and make the killing shomen-uchi. That's the most basic variation, but there are others. You can make kote from that, for example.

Kasumi is a defensive stance; you can't do much offensively with it, just short thrusts to the upper body, but it effectively covers you against strikes from above. Works best against shinchoku-giri (aka shomen-uchi; there are a lot of names for the cut in different branches of kenjutsu), although it'll also work against a right kesa-giri.

In Toyama ryu, it has middle and low analogues in seigan-kamae and ge-seigan, which are used almost exclusively for angulated parries. Pflug looks closer to seigan-kamae than to chudan-kamae to me, although I could be misreading this.

edited 18th Jul '11 2:49:07 PM by Nornagest

Also, Alex, there are several more advanced cuts that involve you pushing on the mune with your left hand whilst holding the hilt with the right. Most draw-cuts across the abdomen.

I'm having a very difficult time getting used to the stances for longsword. Vom Tag in particular gives the feeling of "why the fuck am I doing this my torso is wide open".

I mean, I realise that I can move the sword down easily, but there's still a subconscious fear there.

And here I was hoping this was about the OTHER kind of fencing.

Oh well, life is full of disappointments.

Well, I know a bit about sabre fencing.

Vom Tag is an inherently offensive stance; the sword is supposed to be "cocked" like a gun. That means the intention of the guard is aggressive — you strike once you're in distance. This places your sword between you and your enemy with a fast strike. Since the stance has pulled the sword into your body for you, you don't need to ready the strike; you're free to launch.

Any other stances you need some guidance on, Dia?

@Norn: Pflug is ideally angled like seigan, indeed.

-is learning a lot about kenjutsu-

edited 18th Jul '11 10:16:40 PM by MadassAlex

Thanks, I think I understand. And yes. What exactly can you do from Alber? It seems very counterproductive. Despite the sword not weighing much, it's still difficult for me to conceive doing anything effective with gravity working against you.

Also, how possible is sword-slipping in conjunction with German longsword?

edited 18th Jul '11 10:25:04 PM by Diamonnes

@Blueharp — I fenced epee in college, if you'd like to talk about that.

edited 18th Jul '11 10:28:11 PM by Nornagest

Sword-slipping doesn't seem like a good policy for longsword to me. Vikings could hide behind their shields to defend themselves while correcting their grip after a sword-slipped strike, but a longswordsman relies on their weapon for attack and defense.

Alber very easily parries lower strikes and is a good position to thrust upward from. It's also a deceitful stance, because it takes your adversary's attention downwards when it's actually very easy to make high strikes.

A note on guards:

Guards are more than initial body positions. Every sword technique should begin in a guard and end in a guard. This means that, even if something you didn't plan on occurs, you may very well still be in a guard. The idea isn't just to pick a guard and then use appropriate techniques within range; you're supposed to use techniques whenever the moment is right, and that could mean in the middle of a bind or directly after trading strikes.

If you can't think of why a guard works, think about why you might end up in that position. In Alber's case, a strong downward vertical or horizontal strike might have you end up there if you didn't stop at longpoint or extended Pflug. That means the instant you're in Alber, you can begin using techniques that start from Alber and you probably should.

edited 18th Jul '11 10:38:07 PM by MadassAlex

No, I was talking about the other kind of fencing, the kind with gates, and cornerposts, made of wood, PVC, metal, or I guess stone. Or is that more of a wall than a fence??

There's a respectable fluidity to that way of thinking, Alex. I was never taught anything like that in iaijutsu.